On Idealism, repeated

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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#21  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 25, 2020 9:59 pm

romansh wrote:For me, there is a chasm between the world might not be as we perceive it, to the world being a result of our perception.


That's my feelings as well which is why I can't subscribe to solipsism because it doesn't explain all "this" happening around me and it just asserting that I am the only mind and only thing that exists is unconvincing. Sure all I have access to is my personal experience but that doesn't mean nothing else exists.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#22  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 25, 2020 11:11 pm

Frozenworld wrote:I can't subscribe to solipsism because it doesn't explain all "this" happening around me.


Give yourself a real challenge, Frozenworld. Try to establish a baseline for what it is to explain something. Make sure that when you're explaining, you're not just making up excuses not to admit you don't know what you're talking about.

While you're at it, compare explaining this and that with predicting something. Anything. Here's some advice: Don't run around using the word explain too profligately, or you might cheapen it.

Frozenworld wrote:
I'm asking whether his stuff is true or not. I don't really know anything about philosophy to call him on this.


:roll:

Come on. Predict the next lunar eclipse. Then explain it by quacking that we are seeing the shadow of the earth on the moon. Then just keep going.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#23  Postby romansh » Nov 25, 2020 11:17 pm

This might help us on our way ,,, Feynman on explaining why and how?

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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#24  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 25, 2020 11:22 pm

romansh wrote:This might help us on our way ,,, Feynman on explaining why and how?


Have a shot at telling FW how Feynman gets a better reputation than this other guy and his blog. Tell FW he should 'argue' with Feynman instead of with this other guy, whose name is not a household word with anyone. Consider how much energy you want to waste on getting FW on his way.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#25  Postby romansh » Nov 26, 2020 3:11 am

Cito di Pense wrote: Consider how much energy you want to waste on getting FW on his way.

If our post count is any indication of wasted energy?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#26  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 26, 2020 9:45 am

romansh wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote: Consider how much energy you want to waste on getting FW on his way.

If our post count is any indication of wasted energy?


Not if time is an illusion fostered by our imperfect perception of reality.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#27  Postby romansh » Nov 26, 2020 3:25 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Not if time is an illusion fostered by our imperfect perception of reality.

This then is equally valid for the concept of "wasted".
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#28  Postby laklak » Nov 26, 2020 5:31 pm

One man's wasted is another man's just barely high.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#29  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 26, 2020 7:57 pm

Frozenworld wrote:Sure all I have access to is my personal experience but that doesn't mean nothing else exists.


I've been doing some naked-eye observation of the sky this week, watching the waxing gibbous moon and Mars change places relative to each other as seen from here. Wherever 'here' is. Anyway, it distracted me from fucking around with solipsism. YMMV.

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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#30  Postby LucidFlight » Nov 27, 2020 9:16 am

I dunno. I just find it to be a massive coincidence that all these supposedly evolved apes around me report perceiving things in a very similar fashion. "Oh, that smells like coffee!" "Oh, yeah, it does!" "Maybe it's coffee." "It tastes like coffee." "Agreed." How strange. But then, the god of Idealism would not want us to be confused in a world where every perceived other inhabitant reports to perceive things in entirely different ways. That said, I still don't know why Strictly Come Dancing is so popular with so many people in the UK — or, at least, that's what "they" want me to believe.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#31  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 27, 2020 11:38 am

LucidFlight wrote:all these supposedly evolved apes around me report perceiving things in a very similar fashion.


What are all around you, perceiving things? Are you sure?

LucidFlight wrote:or, at least, that's what "they" want me to believe.



They? What they? I think I must be going nuts if if perceive entities saying this kind of shit. I just keep telling myself, it's all imaginary. All of it.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#32  Postby felltoearth » Nov 27, 2020 8:57 pm

LucidFlight wrote:"Oh, that smells like coffee!" "Oh, yeah, it does!" "Maybe it's coffee." "It tastes like coffee." "Agreed."





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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#33  Postby romansh » Nov 28, 2020 5:19 am

LucidFlight wrote:I dunno. I just find it to be a massive coincidence that all these supposedly evolved apes around me report perceiving things in a very similar fashion. "Oh, that smells like coffee!" "Oh, yeah, it does!" "Maybe it's coffee." "It tastes like coffee." "Agreed." How strange. ...

The problem here, if indeed it is a problem, is that I have a perception of coffee be it taste, aroma or price. Now, my fellow ground apes also have a perception. We have have correlated our perceptions and called it coffee.

But are our perceptions the same? Cito will accurately ask the question does it matter? I suspect not; but I do find it interesting.

Frozenworld has been asking in a charmingly naïve way is there anything to this solipsism or idealism business. I think not. I certainly don't behave as they have any validity. On the other hand I don't see a way to invalidate these concepts; nevertheless, I ignore them, interesting or not, as the case may be.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#34  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 28, 2020 6:28 am

romansh wrote:We have have correlated our perceptions and called it coffee.


The big downside to entertaining this kind of question is that it leads to folksy-sounding language like the above, language which is pathetically vacuous. Isn't the aim to appear not to take something for granted? How does shit like this achieve that effect?

"Correlating our perceptions" uses two words, 'correlate' and 'perception', which sound rigorous, but no legwork is being done, there. Even 'aggregating' doesn't get at the issue. Aggravating, maybe.

More boldly stated in 'calling it coffee': "reality is linguistic", but that would be laughed out of court like a Trump voter fraud suit, except for someone who digs stuff like, "politics is perception". After the last national election in the US, we have some data on how perceptions differ. Asking if we perceive coffee in common is, I dunno, kind of chickenshit.

romansh wrote:
But are our perceptions the same? Cito will accurately ask the question does it matter?


Not the same, depending on how much 'same' you want. It's not a word useful when comparing entities that can't be compared. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, if I were you. The whole point of what you started with is that they're not the 'same'. Basically, the entire edifice begins by assuming there are multiple entities experiencing the world. Using that to prove that there are multiple entities experiencing the world is an, um, underachievement.

The philosophical act of not taking something for granted doesn't get a good start with assuming its conclusion. Better to go back to nattering about qualia.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#35  Postby felltoearth » Nov 28, 2020 5:11 pm

Funny thing is that when you make a beverage of dried and roasted beans from a particular species of shrub a vast majority of people report that it tastes like coffee. I wonder why that is?


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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#36  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 28, 2020 5:27 pm

felltoearth wrote:Funny thing is that when you make a beverage of dried and roasted beans from a particular species of shrub a vast majority of people report that it tastes like coffee. I wonder why that is?


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Sure, but you take other people for granted, which is what you do as a scientist instead of when doing metaphysics. At this level you should admit that. To somebody who's testing idealism, your tactic will be wasted. What should you say to somebody like that, besides "Fuck off"?

People who practice taking nothing for granted know nothing except the cogito. I've never seen anyone work their way out of that without some cheating they won't admit to. Why does it stay interesting for them?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#37  Postby Hermit » Nov 28, 2020 11:36 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Funny thing is that when you make a beverage of dried and roasted beans from a particular species of shrub a vast majority of people report that it tastes like coffee. I wonder why that is?

Sure, but you take other people for granted, which is what you do as a scientist instead of when doing metaphysics. At this level you should admit that. To somebody who's testing idealism, your tactic will be wasted. What should you say to somebody like that, besides "Fuck off"?

People who practice taking nothing for granted know nothing except the cogito. I've never seen anyone work their way out of that without some cheating they won't admit to. Why does it stay interesting for them?

Exactly. Besides, who will step into the path of a fast moving truck because they think the truck only exists in their mind? Idealism is not a concept that affects behaviour.

Samuel Johnson thought he had refuted it by kicking a stone. He had not, but he had demonstrated the barrenness of materialism-idealism conundrum.

Frozenworld would do well to go back to Calilasseia's second post in this thread and look at his problem from that angle. He'll find that methodological materialism, "treating material entities as usefully informative, and not bothering with asserted "immaterial" entities until evidence exists that we need to", obviates the need to wallow in metaphysical baloney.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#38  Postby Hermit » Nov 28, 2020 11:45 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Frozenworld wrote:https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/03/the-dawn-post-materialist-academic.html
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/02/the-strangest-possibility-physical.html

I'm just asking what people think about it. The dude seems pretty convinced that he has buried materialism once and for all but then my follow up question would then be "how is what he is saying not solipsism"? Because his writings, especially the second link, seem to point to solipsism if everything is mental as he puts it.

You just published a link to someone's blog, Frozenworld. It's just something somebody wrote.

To be fair, Kastrup has two PhDs, one of which is in the field he writes about.

That said, have a look at the people who praise his output. FFS. If they did that to me I'd burn everything I'd written and go back to driving trucks.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#39  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 29, 2020 2:32 am

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2016/04 ... in-15.html

My question though is what does that say about death then under his idealism? I mean he seems to think that what we are is deathless and that the self is not a permanent and unchanging thing. To me though this reeks of death anxiety.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#40  Postby Hermit » Nov 29, 2020 3:14 am

Frozenworld wrote:https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2016/04/conquering-fear-of-oblivion-in-15.html

My question though is what does that say about death then under his idealism? I mean he seems to think that what we are is deathless and that the self is not a permanent and unchanging thing. To me though this reeks of death anxiety.

It doesn't matter what Kastrop says about anything. He gets endorsements from the likes of Deepak Chopra, Rupert Sheldrake and Menas Kafatos. Praise from that lot ought to give you a hint regarding the worth of his output. It is metaphysics at its worst. At best it's untestable speculation. More commonly it is a wankfest.

It is really difficult to drag metaphysics further into the mud, but all of the above succeed in doing exactly that. Ignore metaphysics. The Random Deepak Chopra Quote Generator has yet to come up with a sentence that makes less sense.
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