Self-evidence (main q)

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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#881  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 03, 2012 1:02 am

asdfjkl wrote:OK, this is my problem. We have cleared up the matter that the existence of subjective experience is irrefutable. As is your own existence. We also know that those things are the only ones we know exist for certain, or to be evident is to be irrefutable. Now, what I'm afraid of is that it is equally evident and irrefutable that me and my subjective experiences are THE ONLY THINGS that exist, which seems to me to follow from what was cleared up before.
BTW Lobar you still haven't told me what you were worried about that was similar to temporal solipsism.


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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#882  Postby Lobar » Jun 03, 2012 10:05 am

asdfjkl wrote:OK, this is my problem. We have cleared up the matter that the existence of subjective experience is irrefutable. As is your own existence. We also know that those things are the only ones we know exist for certain, or to be evident is to be irrefutable. Now, what I'm afraid of is that it is equally evident and irrefutable that me and my subjective experiences are THE ONLY THINGS that exist, which seems to me to follow from what was cleared up before.
BTW Lobar you still haven't told me what you were worried about that was similar to temporal solipsism.


It's not evident that only the evident things are the only things that exist. Otherwise I'd be a solipsist, and so would everyone else who has thought about the subject (if that even makes sense!! :P )

And I'd prefer not to say, for fear of giving you an anxiety spike, as the OCDers call it. It probably won't even affect you, but I'd rather only say when I can see you've come to accept uncertainty. It was very close to your temporal solipsism, except involved more crazy imagination (which made my doctor think I was a little schizo).
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#883  Postby Lobar » Jun 03, 2012 10:12 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Lobar wrote:
Well, then what other things are certain, that help avoid solipsism?


Other threads.

The way to avoid solipsism is to visit another thread that is not about solipsism, effectively ignoring it.

There is a pronounced tendency in some particularly inept arguments to make the base assumption that the thread arguing in favour of solipsism is the only thing in the universe. YMMV.

You can test this by visiting another thread, not about solipsism, and attempt to introduce solipsism. It's up to you.


Why would I want to introduce solipsism into another thread? Introducing anti-natalism and moral suicide is much more fun.

And, how are other threads certain? They're only certain when looking at them, they might not exist at the moment. So I don't see how they avoid solipsism other than being a different topic.

I can probably think of other things that are certain, but they still don't remove the possibility of solipsism. So I'm still waiting for a better answer from you.
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#884  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 03, 2012 1:19 pm

Lobar wrote:they might not exist at the moment


Oh? Which moment is that? Was it the moment you typed 'they' or the moment you typed 'moment'? I don't know which caricature of solipsism you're promoting, here, as if there were an official version.

You're already screwed if you're going around looking for disproofs of solipsism, which don't exist at the moment.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#885  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jun 03, 2012 2:14 pm

Lobar wrote:
I can probably think of other things that are certain, but they still don't remove the possibility of solipsism. So I'm still waiting for a better answer from you.

How can you be certain you're not a brain in a jar? One thing's for certain, your life works a helluva lot smoother if you aren't running around with the assumption that you're a brain in a jar.

asdfjkl wrote:So any thoughts on the entire matter?


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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#886  Postby Lobar » Jun 03, 2012 3:56 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Oh? Which moment is that? Was it the moment you typed 'they' or the moment you typed 'moment'? I don't know which caricature of solipsism you're promoting, here, as if there were an official version.

You're already screwed if you're going around looking for disproofs of solipsism, which don't exist at the moment.


I'm not looking for disproofs of solipsism. I'm far from being a solipsist, I'm just defending asdfjkl's ideas. (the caricature of solipsism being Temporal solipsism as he's been asking us about for the last few months already - it seems you haven't been reading)

And yes, I am speaking of the exact moment I'm aware of typing this. To make it easy I'll say this very second (How long is a moment anyway? 1 planck second?) The world might not have existed 1 second ago, and it may not exist in a second's time.
Remember there's the possibility you may just be a momentary blip in the quantum realm.
Last edited by Lobar on Jun 03, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#887  Postby Lobar » Jun 03, 2012 3:59 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Lobar wrote:
I can probably think of other things that are certain, but they still don't remove the possibility of solipsism. So I'm still waiting for a better answer from you.

How can you be certain you're not a brain in a jar? One thing's for certain, your life works a helluva lot smoother if you aren't running around with the assumption that you're a brain in a jar.


I'm not certain. I've been saying the whole time that asdfjkl should just accept the uncertainty.

I'm asking this question because Cito seems to be claiming that there are things that are evident that avoid the possibility of solipsism altogether. Then he makes some ridiculous statement that looking at another thread removes the possibility of it. Understand?
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Re: Subjective experience is irrefutable, true or false?

#888  Postby Lobar » Jun 03, 2012 4:25 pm

@asdfjkl - you should've done a pole about whether it's evident that ONLY your senses and perceptions exist. I'm pretty certain that most people would say No.
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#889  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 03, 2012 4:34 pm

Lobar wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Lobar wrote:
I can probably think of other things that are certain, but they still don't remove the possibility of solipsism. So I'm still waiting for a better answer from you.

How can you be certain you're not a brain in a jar? One thing's for certain, your life works a helluva lot smoother if you aren't running around with the assumption that you're a brain in a jar.


I'm not certain. I've been saying the whole time that asdfjkl should just accept the uncertainty.

I'm asking this question because Cito seems to be claiming that there are things that are evident that avoid the possibility of solipsism altogether. Then he makes some ridiculous statement that looking at another thread removes the possibility of it. Understand?


You don't really get parody, do you? It's a kind of anti-solipsism. :naughty2:

Lobar wrote:
Remember there's the possibility you may just be a momentary blip in the quantum realm.


Lobar. Please. Don't get poetry confused with physics. Can you do molecular orbital calculations? No? Then STFU about 'the quantum', unless you admit to publishing this shit as 'poetry'. IOW, don't use poetry to win arguments.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#890  Postby lobawad » Jun 03, 2012 4:56 pm

Cito di Pense wrote: IOW, don't use poetry to win arguments.


Hoeing with enthusiasm the moist trench of love
what heaven could fit better my heart like a glove
or hat?
That is the question here unasked,
the toiler untasked,
the draught not yet unflasked,
Peru.

Refute that, musketeer!
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Re: Subjective experience is irrefutable, true or false?

#891  Postby Weaver » Jun 03, 2012 5:51 pm

asdfjkl wrote:
Weaver wrote:Of course you actually experience what you experience - by definition.

This is the issue of my question.

It's not a question. It's defined. There is no question.
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Re: Subjective experience is irrefutable, true or false?

#892  Postby asdfjkl » Jun 03, 2012 7:30 pm

But you all agree that they do irrefutably exist right (subjective experience). The ones that voted no referred to whether they represent reality right?
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#893  Postby asdfjkl » Jun 03, 2012 7:35 pm

Lobar wrote:
asdfjkl wrote:OK, this is my problem. We have cleared up the matter that the existence of subjective experience is irrefutable. As is your own existence. We also know that those things are the only ones we know exist for certain, or to be evident is to be irrefutable. Now, what I'm afraid of is that it is equally evident and irrefutable that me and my subjective experiences are THE ONLY THINGS that exist, which seems to me to follow from what was cleared up before.
BTW Lobar you still haven't told me what you were worried about that was similar to temporal solipsism.


It's not evident that only the evident things are the only things that exist. Otherwise I'd be a solipsist, and so would everyone else who has thought about the subject (if that even makes sense!! :P )

And I'd prefer not to say, for fear of giving you an anxiety spike, as the OCDers call it. It probably won't even affect you, but I'd rather only say when I can see you've come to accept uncertainty. It was very close to your temporal solipsism, except involved more crazy imagination (which made my doctor think I was a little schizo).

Oh, I've only been worrying about the whole evidence issue as I am right now for ~3 months. As far as I'm concerned I have resolved all other issues that I worried about before. Like you said, it probably won't affect me if you post what it is. The temporal solipsism I'm worried about is the only thing I'm worried about. So could you please post what it was?
It's a bit difficult to explain how I came from the conclusion that if subjective experiences are irrefutable then they are the only things would exist. The thing that I'm alarmed about the most is the fact that irrefutability does indeed exist, so it would be very bad indeed if temporal solipsism was equally irrefutable.
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Re: Subjective experience is irrefutable, true or false?

#894  Postby Thommo » Jun 03, 2012 7:49 pm

As a figment of your imagination, I don't see how I can agree with anything. I suppose you can though.
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Re: Self-evidence (main q)

#895  Postby asdfjkl » Jun 03, 2012 9:51 pm

Answer please?
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Solipsism...(tied to other thread)

#896  Postby asdfjkl » Jun 04, 2012 12:38 am

OK, first of all I'm worried by the fact that I'm even worrying about the idea that solipsism is evident/irrefutable in the same way subjective experience is. Since when something is evident it can't be mistaken for not being evident the fact that I'm accepting the possibility of solipsism being evident makes me feel like I'm fighting a lost battle against it. While that would not definitely imply temporal solipsism, plain old solipsism it does reply.
Secondly, this is my issue described in detail: We know that the existence of you and your experiences has been undisputable since Descartes (I think). The issue I'm facing is how do we know that the existence of an external world is UNCERTAIN, rather than simply impossible. The reason I'm asking this is it seems like the idea that the POSSIBILITY of an external world is rooted in the fact that the sum of you and your experiences is a limited set, and things can therefore exist outside of it. While the fact that it is indeed a limited set is evident, the idea that things can exist outside of it seems like an assumption not rooted on any evident fact.
So any ideas here?
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Re: Solipsism...(tied to other thread)

#897  Postby byofrcs » Jun 04, 2012 12:45 am

Well I would be worried too if I was you.
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Re: Solipsism...(tied to other thread)

#898  Postby asdfjkl » Jun 04, 2012 12:46 am

Why if you were me?
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Re: Solipsism...(tied to other thread)

#899  Postby byofrcs » Jun 04, 2012 12:47 am

It was tautological joke. But you know that.
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Re: Solipsism...(tied to other thread)

#900  Postby Lobar » Jun 04, 2012 6:43 am

What would happen if we applied Occam's Razor to these ideas about Temporal Solipsism? :o
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