Socrates is the problem

Sendraks · **#401** by **Sendraks** » Sep 12, 2018 12:42 pm

wisedupearly wrote:ummm, that seems to be a poor excuse for a lot of irrational actions.

What I said isn't an excuse for behaviour, only an explanation for it,.

wisedupearly wrote:If you allow emotions to override rationality of course your risk of harming yourself and others is greatly increased.
If you gather all possible information and make the most rational choice possible but still end up in the crapper, you at least gave it your best shot.

And here you're simply making a lot of uninformed assumptions about why people might carry out actions that appear irrational in hindsight based on individual judgement/prejudice.

Cito di Pense · **#402** by **Cito di Pense** » Sep 12, 2018 1:07 pm

Sendraks wrote:
wisedupearly wrote:If you allow emotions to override rationality of course your risk of harming yourself and others is greatly increased.
If you gather all possible information and make the most rational choice possible but still end up in the crapper, you at least gave it your best shot.

And here you're simply making a lot of uninformed assumptions about why people might carry out actions that appear irrational in hindsight based on individual judgement/prejudice.

It's impossible to gather "all possible information". Someone with a sufficient degree of concern with "collecting" is just going to end up frozen until it's too late to do anything and action is forced. In less critical areas, this is sometimes called "procrastination". The vessel has been emptied, and what is poured out is an excess of pointless abstract generalization.

Sendraks · **#403** by **Sendraks** » Sep 12, 2018 1:08 pm

Gathering any information would be a start, instead of wallowing in biases.

Cito di Pense · **#404** by **Cito di Pense** » Sep 12, 2018 1:12 pm

Sendraks wrote:Gathering any information would be a start, instead of wallowing in biases.

Do you mean, about whether some action I'm contemplating is going to harm someone else?

A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a new 4K TV. Whatever wisedupearly is on about, he lacks focus.

Keep It Real · **#405** by **Keep It Real** » Sep 12, 2018 1:13 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a TV.

FIFY

Cito di Pense · **#406** by **Cito di Pense** » Sep 12, 2018 1:30 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a TV.

FIFY

Well, whatever you're watching those youtube videos on is more or less your TV. What did I just watch? "Mexican Radio" by Wall of Voodoo. If Socrates is the problem, Wall of Voodoo is one very clear answer.

If you read widely enough, you'll understand my reference to the 4K TV. Or, y'know, just use the search function.

Sendraks · **#407** by **Sendraks** » Sep 12, 2018 1:33 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a new 4K TV. Whatever wisedupearly is on about, he lacks focus.

There's a fixation on definition rather than what is being watched.

Keep It Real · **#408** by **Keep It Real** » Sep 12, 2018 1:35 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a TV.

FIFY

Well, whatever you're watching those youtube videos on is more or less your TV.

If it hasn't got a full-size QWERTY keyboard I'm not interested :lol:

Cito di Pense · **#409** by **Cito di Pense** » Sep 12, 2018 1:36 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a new 4K TV. Whatever wisedupearly is on about, he lacks focus.

There's a fixation on definition rather than what is being watched.

That didn't occur to me. Nice tie-in with Socrates! :cheers:

Cito di Pense · **#410** by **Cito di Pense** » Sep 12, 2018 1:38 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a TV.

FIFY

Well, whatever you're watching those youtube videos on is more or less your TV.

If it hasn't got a full-size QWERTY keyboard I'm not interested

This opens a whole new area of negotiation. Are we talking UK QWERTY or US QWERTY? I don't know if there's an Oz QWERTY, but the keys will all have to be attached upside-down. Canadian QWERTY has an "eh" key instead of the letter 'A'.

What's going to happen to the UK QWERTY after Brexit? The "pound" key is going to be cut back to "ounce".

Speaking of that, do you value yourself, and how do you improve your value?

Thommo · **#411** by **Thommo** » Sep 12, 2018 3:42 pm

wisedupearly wrote:Hopefully we can all agree as to what would be "irrational", such taking recreational drugs of unknown provenance, binge drinking, reckless driving on public roads, climbing into the lion's cage, shooting people on the street. etc etc.

Rumpole of the Bailey wrote:There's no pleasure on earth that's worth sacrificing for the sake of an extra five years in the geriatric ward of the Sunset Old People's Home, Weston-Super-Mare.

wisedupearly · **#412** by **wisedupearly** » Sep 12, 2018 8:44 pm

Thommo wrote:
wisedupearly wrote:Hopefully we can all agree as to what would be "irrational", such taking recreational drugs of unknown provenance, binge drinking, reckless driving on public roads, climbing into the lion's cage, shooting people on the street. etc etc.

Rumpole of the Bailey wrote:There's no pleasure on earth that's worth sacrificing for the sake of an extra five years in the geriatric ward of the Sunset Old People's Home, Weston-Super-Mare.

Heath Ledger never got to see either.

wisedupearly · **#413** by **wisedupearly** » Sep 12, 2018 8:48 pm

Sendraks wrote:
wisedupearly wrote:ummm, that seems to be a poor excuse for a lot of irrational actions.

What I said isn't an excuse for behaviour, only an explanation for it,.

wisedupearly wrote:If you allow emotions to override rationality of course your risk of harming yourself and others is greatly increased.
If you gather all possible information and make the most rational choice possible but still end up in the crapper, you at least gave it your best shot.

And here you're simply making a lot of uninformed assumptions about why people might carry out actions that appear irrational in hindsight based on individual judgement/prejudice.

If you take the time to assess the risks/rewards/your own capability then you are not acting irrationally.
The action is more likely to be successful but there are no guarantees. Life is like that.

wisedupearly · **#414** by **wisedupearly** » Sep 12, 2018 8:52 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Sendraks wrote:Gathering any information would be a start, instead of wallowing in biases.

Do you mean, about whether some action I'm contemplating is going to harm someone else?

A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a new 4K TV. Whatever wisedupearly is on about, he lacks focus.

That is the extent of your life? Consumerism? If the new TV is going take next month's rent money, what are you going to do? Decisions decisions.
If you have the cash in savings, what else could you do with it? Use your imagination. That is what it is there for.

Thommo · **#415** by **Thommo** » Sep 12, 2018 8:57 pm

wisedupearly wrote:
Thommo wrote:
wisedupearly wrote:Hopefully we can all agree as to what would be "irrational", such taking recreational drugs of unknown provenance, binge drinking, reckless driving on public roads, climbing into the lion's cage, shooting people on the street. etc etc.

Rumpole of the Bailey wrote:There's no pleasure on earth that's worth sacrificing for the sake of an extra five years in the geriatric ward of the Sunset Old People's Home, Weston-Super-Mare.

Heath Ledger never got to see either.

So, if you can just get him to agree with you that he regrets his choice, that would show that at least one person agrees with what you think everyone agrees.

And I expect you feel my reply was a touch on the flippant side, I'd suggest this might just be because "binge drinking" was included in the same list as "shooting people on the street" and that both served as a proxy for decisions which didn't maximise life expectancy. In reality there are lots of choices which have just as much rational basis but that do not maximise life expectancy. A pleasurable life of an average of 70 years may well be more "rational" than an abstemious life of 75.

Sendraks · **#416** by **Sendraks** » Sep 12, 2018 9:01 pm

wisedupearly wrote:
If you take the time to assess the risks/rewards/your own capability then you are not acting irrationally.

This does not preclude a post-hoc judgement that an action is still irrational.

wisedupearly wrote:The action is more likely to be successful but there are no guarantees. Life is like that.

That is entirely dependent on who is defining the success criteria.

Cito di Pense · **#417** by **Cito di Pense** » Sep 12, 2018 9:18 pm

wisedupearly wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Sendraks wrote:Gathering any information would be a start, instead of wallowing in biases.

Do you mean, about whether some action I'm contemplating is going to harm someone else?

A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a new 4K TV. Whatever wisedupearly is on about, he lacks focus.

That is the extent of your life? Consumerism?

I don't see you bending any spoons there, big fella. Beats the fuck out of a mere obsession with consumerism.

wisedupearly · **#418** by **wisedupearly** » Sep 12, 2018 9:22 pm

Thommo wrote:

And I expect you feel my reply was a touch on the flippant side, I'd suggest this might just be because "binge drinking" was included in the same list as "shooting people on the street" and that both served as a proxy for decisions which didn't maximise life expectancy. In reality there are lots of choices which have just as much rational basis but that do not maximise life expectancy. A pleasurable life of an average of 70 years may well be more "rational" than an abstemious life of 75.

Many alcoholics beat the statistical life expectancy. Are you going to claim that they had a pleasurable life?
Surely, you say, one bout of binge drinking is harmless. Maybe. Why would you consider binge drinking to yield desirable results? Because life is dark and depressing? Because we are all going to die and are just of organic sludge with no free will or control. Because your "friends" are doing it? Because they dare you to do it? Can't think of anything more rational to do?

wisedupearly · **#419** by **wisedupearly** » Sep 12, 2018 9:25 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
wisedupearly wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Sendraks wrote:Gathering any information would be a start, instead of wallowing in biases.

Do you mean, about whether some action I'm contemplating is going to harm someone else?

A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a new 4K TV. Whatever wisedupearly is on about, he lacks focus.

That is the extent of your life? Consumerism?

I don't see you bending any spoons, there, big fella.

Spoon bending is for the kiddies. Thinking/acting rationally achieves something far bigger --- but you don't want to know about that, do you?

Cito di Pense · **#420** by **Cito di Pense** » Sep 12, 2018 9:32 pm

wisedupearly wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
wisedupearly wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

Do you mean, about whether some action I'm contemplating is going to harm someone else?

A good example would be to ask myself whether or not I really need a new 4K TV. Whatever wisedupearly is on about, he lacks focus.

That is the extent of your life? Consumerism?

I don't see you bending any spoons, there, big fella.

Spoon bending is for the kiddies. Thinking/acting rationally achieves something far bigger --- but you don't want to know about that, do you?

I want to know all about it. Especially about how big it is.

wisedupearly wrote:Because we are all going to die and are just of organic sludge with no free will or control.

We have a whole thread set up just for folks like you. Hit the ground running, because that thread already has hundreds of pages. If we're organic sludge, then free will is not in the cards. But please, don't review all that shit here.

wisedupearly wrote:Use your imagination. That is what is there for.

We had another champion spoon-bender around here of a time. He was into that whole imagination thing. And free will. He lu' him summa dat free will. If only he were still here. You and he would get on famously, if you're not both the same motherfucking individual.

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