Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

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Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#1  Postby pl0bs » Aug 31, 2018 8:12 pm

Suppose you have a species of conscious (C1) organisms which control their 4 limbs(l):
Code: Select all
   C1
l l l l

Over time, the species (C2) evolves to have 8 limbs, which it still controls each individually:
Code: Select all
      C2
l l l l l l l l

Over time, some of the species (C3) evolve organs that automate motion for a group of limbs (AL = automated left, AR = automated right).
Code: Select all
        C3
  AL          AR
l l l l     l l l l


In order to move 8 limbs, organism C2 needs instruct all 8 limbs. In order to move 8 limbs, organism C3 need only to give/delegate instructions to AL and AR. Organism C3 can outperform C2, giving it a survival advantage while hunting for food, competing for reproductive mates, etc. C2 becomes extinct, and C3 survives.

You hereby have an evolutionary process by which the organism becomes more complex biologically, while consciousness remains disproportionally simple, yet in control by delegating processes to (or automating them in) other organs. Of course, if you extrapolate this process back in time (depending on if/when C arose), this gives C higher level control over DNA.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#2  Postby pl0bs » Aug 31, 2018 8:21 pm

And a side effect of this process is the superficial illusion that consciousness is a higher level activity unrelated to lower level bodily functions, and that it is something that arose late on the evolutionary timeline.
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#3  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 01, 2018 10:36 am

Hey, Mr. Assertionism is back! :sigh:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#4  Postby LucidFlight » Sep 01, 2018 11:13 am

:wave: (automated wave)
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#5  Postby Thommo » Sep 01, 2018 11:17 am

pl0bs wrote:In order to move 8 limbs, organism C2 needs instruct all 8 limbs. In order to move 8 limbs, organism C3 need only to give/delegate instructions to AL and AR. Organism C3 can outperform C2, giving it a survival advantage while hunting for food, competing for reproductive mates, etc. C2 becomes extinct, and C3 survives.


There's no advantage here as presented. "Automating" doesn't tell us anything, let alone that C3 can perform better or use less resources than or perform equally well to C2.
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#6  Postby Animavore » Sep 01, 2018 11:19 am

pl0bs wrote: (depending on if/when C arose),


arise

əˈrʌɪz/

verb

past tense: arose

1.

(of a problem, opportunity, or situation) emerge; become apparent.

synonyms:come to light, become apparent, make an appearance, appear, emerge, crop/turn up, come about, surface, spring up, enter into the picture; More

2.

formalliterary

get or stand up.

synonyms:stand up, rise, get to one's feet, get up, jump up, leap up, spring up; 


:think:
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#7  Postby Thommo » Sep 01, 2018 11:34 am

Here's a fun little consequence:

If organism C3 can automate limbs to outperform organism C2 which has individually controlled limbs then organism C2 will be extinct.

is equivalent to:

If organism C2 which has individually controlled limbs is not extinct then organism C3 cannot automate limbs to outperform organism C2.

By contraposition.

So if we apply that to humans, which do not have automated limbs we can conclude that no such "automation" is possible.
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#8  Postby newolder » Sep 01, 2018 11:40 am

Any thoughts?

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? :think:
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#9  Postby LucidFlight » Sep 01, 2018 12:00 pm

newolder wrote:
Any thoughts?

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? :think:

It depends on the level of control that consciousness has over DNA.
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#10  Postby newolder » Sep 01, 2018 12:03 pm

LucidFlight wrote:
newolder wrote:
Any thoughts?

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? :think:

It depends on the level of control that consciousness has over DNA.

Like when someone uses Crispr to edit a genome, for example?
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#11  Postby LucidFlight » Sep 01, 2018 12:11 pm

Yes.
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#12  Postby pl0bs » Sep 01, 2018 8:41 pm

Thommo wrote:So if we apply that to humans, which do not have automated limbs we can conclude that no such "automation" is possible.
Are you aware of all the muscle fibers when you move your arm? Automated.

This process also happens when a baby learns to walk.
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#13  Postby pl0bs » Sep 01, 2018 8:43 pm

Thommo wrote:There's no advantage here as presented. "Automating" doesn't tell us anything, let alone that C3 can perform better or use less resources than or perform equally well to C2.
Compare the walking ability of someone who just had a stroke and needs to learn to walk again, to that of someone who can walk just fine.

Massive survival advantage not to have ones total conscious attention focused on basic movements.
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#14  Postby pl0bs » Sep 01, 2018 8:51 pm

Taken together, recent work in these domains demonstrates that automaticity does not result exclusively from a process of skill acquisition (in which a process always begins as a conscious and deliberate one, becoming capable of automatic operation only with frequent use) – there are evolved substrates and early childhood learning mechanisms involved as well.

https://acmelab.yale.edu/sites/default/ ... cesses.pdf
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#15  Postby Thommo » Sep 01, 2018 8:55 pm

pl0bs wrote:
Thommo wrote:So if we apply that to humans, which do not have automated limbs we can conclude that no such "automation" is possible.
Are you aware of all the muscle fibers when you move your arm? Automated.

This process also happens when a baby learns to walk.


I'm not sure that's an answer to what you're quoting, which was fairly explictly dependent on earlier parts of the same post, based on assumptions that were contained in the post it quoted. There was no suggestion this was context free.

I also don't think there's any reason to believe that any of my ancestors were aware of every fibre in the muscles of their arm. Or that that's the same as my individual arms not being in my control, which is what the OP very explicitly says when it subdivides individually controlled limbs to two groups of limbs with automated motion.

It's pretty clear that human arms are individually controlled, not subject to automated motion within a group of limbs.
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#16  Postby Thommo » Sep 01, 2018 8:59 pm

pl0bs wrote:
Thommo wrote:There's no advantage here as presented. "Automating" doesn't tell us anything, let alone that C3 can perform better or use less resources than or perform equally well to C2.
Compare the walking ability of someone who just had a stroke and needs to learn to walk again, to that of someone who can walk just fine.

Massive survival advantage not to have ones total conscious attention focused on basic movements.


That's not an answer. It's a non sequitur.

The problem stroke victims have is not that they must exert conscious control over a group of limbs, it's that they can't - whether consciously or not - perform tasks due to brain damage. Prior to the brain damage they did not have autonomous groups of limbs in the first place.

Stroke victims have to relearn control by creating new connections. Their experience is almost exactly unlike that of being able to consciously control their limbs, but then struggling when they leave it to "automation".
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Re: Superior simple consciousness controls DNA

#17  Postby Calilasseia » Sep 06, 2018 8:30 am

I see pl0bs is back with his usual ignorance of basic biology ... I'll just let this one run and enjoy the spectacle ...
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