The Secrets of Quantum Physics

New BBC Documentary inadvertently promotes Idealism

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#401  Postby kennyc » Dec 17, 2014 12:52 pm

While we're waiting (an eternity) for jamest's detailed clarification of his 'philosophy' (note scare quotes) here's a bit from Sean Carroll

http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blo ... mechanics/

.....referencing Fenyman:
...
“It will be difficult. But the difficulty really is psychological and exists in the perpetual torment that results from your saying to yourself, ‘But how can it be like that?’ which is a reflection of uncontrolled but utterly vain desire to see it in terms of something familiar. I will not describe it in terms of an analogy with something familiar; I will simply describe it. … I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. … Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, ‘But how can it be like that?’ because you will get ‘down the drain’, into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that.”

-Feynman, The Character of Physical Law (chapter 6, pg. 129)
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#402  Postby DavidMcC » Dec 17, 2014 1:53 pm

No version of MWI is necessary.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#403  Postby Evolving » Dec 17, 2014 3:35 pm

jamest wrote:I do indeed think that what the physicists are telling us about 'quanta' (the fundamental energy underpinning our observations of the world) is wholly compatible with my metaphysics. The fact, for instance, that there are no definite particles of matter (instead, energy with the potential to 'exist' anywhere within the observable space-time universe from one moment to the next which becomes like a particle when we observe or measure it, though still retains its wave-nature)…


We can certainly agree that the matter that we encounter is not, at a fundamental level, composed of hard, solid things. What it, instead, seems to be composed of is excitations of a field, which propagate as waves and, at any moment, are each spread over a greater or smaller region; and if the region over which such a wave is spread is small enough, then it behaves in important ways as if it were a hard, solid thing, even though it still isn’t actually one.

I think there is a danger of attaching too much importance to the “collapse” of the wave function. It is interesting because it explains certain otherwise baffling things, notably why the “excitation”, in a certain well-known experiment, travels through one slit alone and not through two at the same time; and it is of historical interest, because this is how we first got on to the track of the nature of quantum reality. But, as I have tried to explain, all that is happening here is a change in the shape of the wave function, so that it occupies less space than it did before, usually close to its former expectation value; there is no fundamental change to the physical object that we are observing; a number of people here have pointed out that this doesn’t only happen when humans perform experiments, it happens whenever the physical circumstances are such as to cause it to happen; and of course the object exists physically at all times, whatever the shape of its wave function.

jamest wrote:... is wholly compatible with the view that definite matter does not exist except [fleetingly] within the mind/consiousness of the observer.


I suppose that anything is compatible with the idea that what we think of as the real world is an illusion; it doesn’t really matter what it looks like or how it seems to behave.

But I thought a stronger claim was being made: that quantum mechanics positively confirmed, albeit inadvertently, that nothing exists in reality except in the consciousness of the observer.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#404  Postby DavidMcC » Dec 17, 2014 4:29 pm

Little Idiot wrote:Isnt cherenkov radiation due to particles moving faster than light in a medium?
AFAIK its faster than light in a vacuum which is not OK, so there isnt an actual reason why particles cant go through a medium at a speed greater than light goes through that medium (as long as the medium is not vacuum).

(sorry to bring the bickering back onto the physics :) )

That is correct, LI. FTL starships would presumably travel in in the vacuum of space, and that is why they are fiction.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#405  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 17, 2014 6:57 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
felltoearth wrote:...

Make friends easily?

Well, I could, until my thread about a certain JPL project about space travel technology. After that, most of the science mods started to gang up on me, just because I had said that the laws of physics rule out FTL travel (ie, Star Trek).

:roll:
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#406  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Dec 18, 2014 12:02 am

Evolving wrote:
I think there is a danger of attaching too much importance to the “collapse” of the wave function. It is interesting because it explains certain otherwise baffling things, notably why the “excitation”, in a certain well-known experiment, travels through one slit alone and not through two at the same time; and it is of historical interest, because this is how we first got on to the track of the nature of quantum reality.


Why isn't the slitted wall sufficient on its own to measure/collapse the wavefunction?
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#407  Postby Evolving » Dec 18, 2014 7:32 am

Sorry, Ven, I don't understand that question.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#408  Postby BlackBart » Dec 18, 2014 10:02 am

I think what Ven is asking is why doesn't the slitted wall itself count as an observer of the wavefunction?
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#409  Postby twistor59 » Dec 18, 2014 10:03 am

Evolving wrote:Sorry, Ven, I don't understand that question.


I read it as "why don't the slits perform a position measurement on the photon and hence collapse the wavefunction?". This is a good question.

I believe the answer would be something like:

The photon is an excitation of a "mode" of the electromagnetic field. The mode *must* satisfy Maxwell's equations. Moreover it must satisfy Maxwell's equations with whatever boundary conditions are imposed. In this case the boundary conditions just constrain the field to go between the slits.

To perform a position measurement you must interact with the photon (e.g. at the detector). Interacting with a photon inevitably means destroying it, since interactions must involve a vertex with two fermion lines and a photon line. (Before anybody objects, no, weak measurements don't directly measure positions/momenta).

People often think of photons as little balls of energy (because they're called elementary "particles"). They can be like that, but they don't have to be!
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#410  Postby Evolving » Dec 18, 2014 10:08 am

Ah, I see: why doesn't the wave function immediately collapse as soon as it encounters a grating? Indeed, the grating alone isn't enough. Thanks, twistor.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#411  Postby DavidMcC » Dec 18, 2014 12:57 pm

twistor59 wrote:
Evolving wrote:Sorry, Ven, I don't understand that question.


I read it as "why don't the slits perform a position measurement on the photon and hence collapse the wavefunction?". This is a good question.

I believe the answer would be something like:

The photon is an excitation of a "mode" of the electromagnetic field. The mode *must* satisfy Maxwell's equations. Moreover it must satisfy Maxwell's equations with whatever boundary conditions are imposed. In this case the boundary conditions just constrain the field to go between the slits.

To perform a position measurement you must interact with the photon (e.g. at the detector). Interacting with a photon inevitably means destroying it, since interactions must involve a vertex with two fermion lines and a photon line. (Before anybody objects, no, weak measurements don't directly measure positions/momenta).

People often think of photons as little balls of energy (because they're called elementary "particles"). They can be like that, but they don't have to be!

Twistor, if "interacting" with a photon "inevitably" means destroying it, then diffraction, reflection and refraction cannot be "interaction". A better way to look at it is that diffraction, reflection and refraction modify the wavefunction for the photon (as a particle), whereas detection (when it involves absorption) destroys it.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#412  Postby Evolving » Dec 18, 2014 1:32 pm

And I can be even more pedantic.

twistor59 wrote:In this case the boundary conditions just constrain the field to go between the slits.


Actually it goes through the slits, not between them.

Silly twistor.

:smile:
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#413  Postby DavidMcC » Dec 18, 2014 1:35 pm

Evolving wrote:And I can be even more pedantic.

...

I was not being pedantic, Evolving. Just trying to avoid the confusion that twistor's post would tend to cause.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#414  Postby SpeedOfSound » Dec 18, 2014 1:40 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
Evolving wrote:And I can be even more pedantic.

...

I was not being pedantic, Evolving. Just trying to avoid the confusion that twistor's post would tend to cause.

How can a post be causal? What if no one ever read it? What if you read it with slit glasses?
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#415  Postby twistor59 » Dec 18, 2014 1:51 pm

Evolving wrote:And I can be even more pedantic.

twistor59 wrote:In this case the boundary conditions just constrain the field to go between the slits.


Actually it goes through the slits, not between them.

Silly twistor.

:smile:


:lol:
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#416  Postby DavidMcC » Dec 18, 2014 2:04 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Evolving wrote:And I can be even more pedantic.

...

I was not being pedantic, Evolving. Just trying to avoid the confusion that twistor's post would tend to cause.

How can a post be causal? What if no one ever read it? What if you read it with slit glasses?

:roll:
It is reasonable to assume that people read posts that are on the front page of a thread they are following. The only time that this might be wrong is when the posting rate is very high, and the reader is short of time.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#417  Postby Pulsar » Dec 18, 2014 2:05 pm

twistor59 wrote: :lol:

Twistor, could you tell if this post of mine makes any sense, or have I made a fool of myself? :dopey:
QFT is way out of my comfort zone, especially all that Higgs stuff.
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#418  Postby twistor59 » Dec 18, 2014 2:18 pm

Pulsar wrote:
twistor59 wrote: :lol:

Twistor, could you tell if this post of mine makes any sense, or have I made a fool of myself? :dopey:
QFT is way out of my comfort zone, especially all that Higgs stuff.


Oh yeah, that's funny I just read it. The helicity/chirality/Higgs stuff was spot on as far as I could tell (I'm only an engineer!) - the sterile neutrino stuff was new to me!
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#419  Postby Pulsar » Dec 18, 2014 2:22 pm

twistor59 wrote:Oh yeah, that's funny I just read it. The helicity/chirality/Higgs stuff was spot on as far as I could tell (I'm only an engineer!) - the sterile neutrino stuff was new to me!

Thanks! :cheers:
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Re: The Secrets of Quantum Physics

#420  Postby ElDiablo » Dec 18, 2014 3:41 pm

I keep observing this thread to see jamest's reply about unequivocally demonstrating his OP but it hasn't materialized.
Am I doing something wrong?
Shouldn't staring at an area of my computer screen and thinking about a possible reply make it come into existence? I would figure that if we can make a whole universe come into existence by opening our eyes, then something as simple as pixels on a screen would be a breeze to conjure up? Please don't say I need to understand computer engineering for this to happen.
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