Just had my most recent psychosis and feel I have walked away with an interesting idea.

Can fear exist for anything physically manifest in the present? e.g. Statements like "I am afraid this person is hitting me" or even "I am afraid I lost everything I have" sounds like something a bored butler in a P.G. Wodehouse book might say.

The object of fear, unless I am mistaken, always exists in the uncertain future. This does not mean that there is nothing to be afraid of. There is plenty. But perhaps if we are actually willing to examine our fear, when we realize we are experiencing it, then we are giving fear a place to exist---to be---(the eternal future) while at the same time realizing what we fear does not exist in the now, except as a concept.
Normally when we have a frightening thought, the ego(or whatever you call it) seeks to immediately kill that thought/banish it from existence. We fear the fearful thought itself, perhaps, thus loving the not-being of an idea of X not-being, maybe thus giving it fodder to grow stronger and move from being to becoming.
Maybe giving love to double negation makes what is not-being become being?

I realize this could be (n)utter mumbo-jumbo so thoughts of others would be appreciated...

Fear is an important evolutionary tool required for survival. Not having it would mean there would be
no reliable means for assessing danger. And not being afraid of anything does not make one invincible

I was not advocating living withOUT fear. In fact if I had to sum up my suggestion in 3 words: Live WITH fear. I think that is different from Live IN fear.

realNutjob wrote:Just had my most recent psychosis and feel I have walked away with an interesting idea.

Can fear exist for anything physically manifest in the present? e.g. Statements like "I am afraid this person is hitting me" or even "I am afraid I lost everything I have" sounds like something a bored butler in a P.G. Wodehouse book might say.

Fear is an emotion which can easily be triggered by something physically manifest in the present, producing the fight or flight response. It's instinct based and has its basis in self-preservation. If you walked into your house and saw an enraged gorilla staring at you, you'd shit your pants that very moment.

The object of fear, unless I am mistaken, always exists in the uncertain future.

That's just not true, as above. I think that you're conflating anxiety with fear, whereby anxiety is a fearful outlook which has its basis within thoughts about fear.

jamest wrote:
Fear is an emotion which can easily be triggered by something physically manifest in the present, producing the fight or flight response. It's instinct based and has its basis in self-preservation. If you walked into your house and saw an enraged gorilla staring at you, you'd shit your pants that very moment.

The object of fear, unless I am mistaken, always exists in the uncertain future.

That's just not true, as above. I think that you're conflating anxiety with fear, whereby anxiety is a fearful outlook which has its basis within thoughts about fear.

While I can certainly agree that it is a physical stimulus that triggers a fear, I am lot less certain that the fear itself is about the physical stimulus currently being experienced. Take an arachnophobe for example. The fear is triggered by seeing a spider. But is the fear itself of seeing a spider? e.g. "I am afraid I am seeing a spider". Or rather an uncertainty of something re the spider? e.g. "I am afraid that spider is going to bite me".

That kind of thought is re something that MAY take place in the future, not something that IS happening in the present. When we can realize that the reality we fear, is one we fear will become true, and is not being true, I think we can learn to live with our fears and not to let them control our behaviour. The difference between anxiety and fear is, I would think, merely a matter of degree.

Fear should control our behaviour. It's a survival instinct, and is in response to a threatening situation. Anxiety is as well. It's when anxiety is unfounded, irrational or futile that there's a problem.

Yes, fear exists in response to expected future events. Suffering/unconsciousness/death is fear in the present or something fearful manifested.

Keep It Real wrote:Yes, fear exists in response to expected future events. Suffering/unconsciousness/death is fear in the present or something fearful manifested.

I want to make it clear again that fear is an instinctive emotion which reacts in the present to any perceived event. Whereas fears for the future are thoughts about one's fears which may well induce [some] physical symptoms usually associated with fear. The distinction between thought and emotion is marked, as is the distinction between emotions and thoughts about it, even when such thoughts induce a physical-emotional response to some degree. Hence the distinction between pure instinctive fear and thought-based anxiety.

Or, to be clear, fear doesn't give two shits about the future. You can blame all of that on your own skull.

I think my post may have confused the lot of you. I was talking about loving fear...........not ending it. Sort of realizing fear is of the mind. Not of the Self.
being afraid. not becoming afraid.

realNutjob wrote:I think my post may have confused the lot of you.

I urge you to skip the preliminaries, Anoop, so that you can better educate yourself about how well-worn is the trail of yammering you're on about:

http://www.positivityblog.com/22-inspir ... s-on-fear/

At best you are simply ignorant of this body of literature; at worst, you are passing off other people's intellectual achievements as your own. The asshole who owns that website is just trying to make a buck from people's fear responses. Don't follow in his footsteps without at least some attempt to credit your sources. This is not just because you want to convince us that you don't really believe you're inventing the first wheel. Then you can proceed with the argument from popularity.

jamest wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:Yes, fear exists in response to expected future events. Suffering/unconsciousness/death is fear in the present or something fearful manifested.

I want to make it clear again that fear is an instinctive emotion which reacts in the present to any perceived event. Whereas fears for the future are thoughts about one's fears which may well induce [some] physical symptoms usually associated with fear

Err... no. The same thing doesn't change its makeup purely through difference in time frame. Fear is an emotion, whether it is fear of something happening now, or of something happening in the future. Thoughts are what engender emotions, and emotions then frame subsequent thoughts. So one has a thought about the future which induces a fear response. The thought must come first, otherwise how would fear arise? Then in the context of the emotion of fear, more thoughts ensue, coloured by the fear. Thoughts and emotions - two separate things, but closely linked.

The distinction between thought and emotion is marked,

You may care to notice that you are contradicting yourself here. Previously you describe fear of the future as a thought, as though the line between thought and emotion can be jumped so long as there is enough time between oneself and the anticipated event. Now you say the distinction is marked.

as is the distinction between emotions and thoughts about it, even when such thoughts induce a physical-emotional response to some degree. Hence the distinction between pure instinctive fear and thought-based anxiety.

Not really. All emotion is thought-based (I prefer cognition-based), even that which appears instinctive. It is just a matter of lightning fast brain processes. Anxiety is not thoughts about emotion as you somewhat quirkily describe it. It is an emotion induced by thoughts of a possible event outcome. The emotion is about the evisioned event. It is not about the thought itself. Basically, it's an emotion just like any other, and just like any other it can be appropriate or not, depending on how closely our THOUGHTS represent the actual situation.

Or, to be clear, fear doesn't give two shits about the future. You can blame all of that on your own skull.

That's being clear, is it? Fear doesn't give a shit about anything because it is not a sentient being, not because it distinguishes between present and future. If you really must blame your skull for something, you can blame it for the THOUGHT PROCESSES it goes through in order for you to react with the emotion of fear. Fear which is the same animal whether it concerns now or next year. It is thought processes, against the backdrop of perception, or frame of reference, which constitutes the difference.

realNutjob wrote:I think my post may have confused the lot of you. I was talking about loving fear...........not ending it. Sort of realizing fear is of the mind. Not of the Self.
being afraid. not becoming afraid.

Lol what? Loving fear? Being not becoming? Of the mind but not of the self? Oh fair enough, then, ho mani padme hum, my good fellow.

Incidentally, what was it in my post, which specifically said that fear should control our behaviour, that had you thinking I wanted to end fear?

Do you have terror of hell realNutjob? When I was psychotic that was a prevailing theme to my delusions. I can help you get to a place where you will see that fear of hell is irrational if you'd like.

Fallible wrote:

Incidentally, what was it in my post, which specifically said that fear should control our behaviour, that had you thinking I wanted to end fear?

I am pretty sure you and I have very different concepts of 'ending' fear. Just to take a stab at it, i would say you want fear to change what you are ----- essentially modify your physical & mental aspects; change your behavior and knowing. To do so you STOP being what you are(fear) and BECOME afraid WITHOUT knowing LOVE of fear. So you change what you are without knowing what you will be.

The way i see it now though, when i know i am fear, i also know i am love of fear. so i do not change what i am which is love of what is. so i stay what i am while changing what i will be.
I am pretty sure there are semantic issues in there somewhere.

Keep It Real wrote:Do you have terror of hell realNutjob? When I was psychotic that was a prevailing theme to my delusions. I can help you get to a place where you will see that fear of hell is irrational if you'd like.

Thanks KIR. Yes, fear of hell was part of my psychosis and still crops up as a vague flutter now and then. But I know that I dont need to become afraid of being in hell until I am actually in hell. And then there is no point to being afraid of being afraid of being in hell if i know it cant be Changed. If I know it CAN be changed, then I know I always have hope of getting out of hell.

realNutjob wrote:

Fallible wrote:

Incidentally, what was it in my post, which specifically said that fear should control our behaviour, that had you thinking I wanted to end fear?

I am pretty sure you and I have very different concepts of 'ending' fear. Just to take a stab at it, i would say you want fear to change what you are ----- essentially modify your physical & mental aspects; change your behavior and knowing. To do so you STOP being what you are(fear) and BECOME afraid WITHOUT knowing LOVE of fear. So you change what you are without knowing what you will be.

The way i see it now though, when i know i am fear, i also know i am love of fear. so i do not change what i am which is love of what is. so i stay what i am while changing what i will be.
I am pretty sure there are semantic issues in there somewhere.

I am pretty sure there is nothing in there worth saying. You are pretty sure of much which turns out to be bollocks. How many different ways can I say this? I dont want to end fear at all, because it serves a purpose. Incidentally, you can't avoid change. It has happened to you in many ways over which you have no control even since you posted this claptrap.

Incidentally, you can't avoid change. It has happened to you in many ways over which you have no control even since you posted this claptrap.

Ah but you see, I can change while knowing what I am(love of all that is), so I can stay the same while changing. But don't worry, it's natural not to realize it until you have experienced it for yourself. And you won't do that unless you want to.
Thats all from me in this thread. If you wish to know more, try reading Being And Becoming by Arthur Combs.

realNutjob wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:Do you have terror of hell realNutjob? When I was psychotic that was a prevailing theme to my delusions. I can help you get to a place where you will see that fear of hell is irrational if you'd like.

Thanks KIR. Yes, fear of hell was part of my psychosis and still crops up as a vague flutter now and then. But I know that I dont need to become afraid of being in hell until I am actually in hell. And then there is no point to being afraid of being afraid of being in hell if i know it cant be Changed. If I know it CAN be changed, then I know I always have hope of getting out of hell.

I got over Pascal's wager/terror of hell using a number of different logical deductions, but I'll start you off with the first one which springs to mind.

Only a sincere believer is spared hell according to Islam/Christianity. Nobody has any power over whether they believe or not, and what god/system could possibly condemn a sentient being to eternal torture for something they have no control over? Answer - no such divine system could exist, and since you have no power over whether you believe or not, it's doubly pointless to worry about it.

If anybody else has some refutations of the hell hypothesis I encourage them to post them. It is the root cause of a great deal of suffering (no pun intended) and need be expunged.

Oh I have NO fear of the monotheistic versions of hell. My hell is being forced to become what I dont want since I lose motor control during my psychoses. But I have decided since it is not ME actually being during those time, I am essentially being the puppet of another, possibly unknown, force.

As for the Xtian/Muslim concepts of hell, the way I see it their heaven can become hellish.....or their hells can become heaven. What would reality be like for a Xtian who had atheist friends before he died and then in heaven realized that his buddies were suffering eternal torture in hell while he was supposed to be singing and dancing?
Or hell could become an entertaining experience since once you knew you could not die anymore and also knew you were there for eternity and gonna be suffering no matter what, you could just accept it and take a keen interest in what they were gonna do to make you suffer today.....

realNutjob wrote:My hell is being forced to become what I dont want since I lose motor control during my psychoses. But I have decided since it is not ME actually being during those time, I am essentially being the puppet of another, possibly unknown, force.

Well, I don't believe in free will - we (our perceptual consciousness) are constantly puppets at the whim of genetic and environmental factors beyond our control. Control is an illusion - not to say you're in hell (it's a pretty rare definition you have there BTW) just to say you can only seek out biological/physical and environmental stimuli which (one hopes) are of benefit and wish for the best. I was no more in control when I got my 1st than I was when I was travelling the country for 4 days imagining I was a secret cybernetic super weapon/intelligence operative who's responsibility it was to save the civilised world.