There is no absolute chaos

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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#261  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 22, 2020 5:59 pm

jamest wrote:I've said that I'll respond to Thommo's post and I will, so sit back and wait.


Here's what I think will happen. Your reply will be short, will assume its own conclusions, will leverage a theme that says if Thommo doesn't accept your contention then he's an idiot, and you'll round it off by talking about badgers or robes.

Prove me wrong, please.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#262  Postby hackenslash » Jan 22, 2020 6:38 pm

Ultimately, all the waffle is an excuse to erect the "prime mover <=> god" relationship, and that's also where it dies, because relativity killed all prime movers.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#263  Postby romansh » Jan 23, 2020 4:38 am

Thommo wrote:There is, we can do it right here. Let's start now.

The OP leans heavily into three largely unrelated concepts: Order, chaos and absoluteness.

As conventionally defined order is a distinct arrangement of discrete elements into a sequence with an ordering. For example yesterday I went to the cash machine, today I went to the supermarket - I went to the cash machine before I went to the supermarket in a temporal ordering. Earth is closer to the Sun than Jupter. Jupiter is closer to the Sun in a spatial ordering. This type of ordering can be precisely defined in the fields of philosophy, mathematics and logic by means of being a relation between two objects (known as relata in philosophical circles) which obey certain properties: reflexivity, transitivity and antisymmetry. Unfortunately it is clear that the OP does not use the term order in this way. It's unclear what it is supposed to actually mean and that ambiguity itself is a severe flaw in the OP that needs to be addressed.

As conventionally defined chaos is the behaviour of nonlinear systems that display sensitivity to initial conditions. Chaos theory: a very small pertubation in air flows today will lead to ever increasing divergence of the weather in the future from a forecast based on a model even when no nondeterministic element is introduced. Such systems are noted for their predictable patterns of behaviour that emerge under some conditions. We can't forecast the weather and yet there is such a thing as climate, despite the proverbial butterfly flapping its wings in Hong Kong. Unfortunately is is clear that the OP does not use the term chaos in this way. It's unclear what it is supposed to actually mean and that ambiguity itself is a severe flaw in the OP that needs to be addressed.

Absoluteness is a bit vaguer. It might mean "to the greatest possible extent", or it might mean "unconditionally", or it might mean "unchanging" or it might mean something else. Again it's unclear what it is supposed to actually mean and that ambiguity itself is a severe flaw in the OP that needs to be addressed.

There are additional concerns, of course, to pick a few:
"So, by rational default there can be no amount of order in absolute chaos." This is an appeal to rationality, not an application of it. I think it works fine as a definition, which is to say you can say this is what you mean by "absolute chaos", but no actual reasoning has taken place here. It's also key to note that this definition relies on a definition of order that is never given, so is incomplete thusfar.

"the things themselves are representative of order" This is inscrutable. We don't know what "order" means here, so this clause cannot be evaluated. It makes no sense to use it in deriving a conclusion because any conclusion is of equally indeterminate truth.

"Hence, obviously, absolute chaos is a concept we can only use wrt the utter disorder of nothing." This is a non sequitur. It does not follow from what precedes it rationally, logically or by a process of reason. Even accepting at face value the previous claims (and I've indicated why I don't) the statement is too strong. You've ignored a possible state of affairs in which nothing can be said about the number of things within it at all, their permanence, distinctness or anything else. In a weak enough logic we could assert the bare existence of such a state of affairs but could not deduce this meant there were no things in it.

let us consider the meaning of absolute order - what would that entail? Well, it would necessarily entail that the whole system/environment be 'self' explanatory This is again a non sequitur. It is baldly asserted. You refer to the concept of entailment but don't actually use it. To make matters worse the conclusion of the statement is also an undefined term "being 'self' explanatory". It is impossible for your reader to make sense of the claim, let alone establish it's being entailed.

Any measure of order is indicative of a primal cause!! More of the same. Again, plucked out of thin air with no reason to evaluate. A failure of argumentation. One thing to note here is that we can infer you believe order is something that can be measured, although you do not define the measure.

Implied within this statement is that the existence of any order within a system be necessarily self-explanatory. That would even apply to the order inherent within what we call quantum mechanics. This one is just wrong. The statement "absolute order would necessarily entail that the system as a whole must have a singular explanation for the order therein" does not make such an implication. It makes no implications about order at all, it only claims something (which would need to be established and has not been, as mentioned above) about absolute order. We can again, at best, infer that the terms "order" and "absolute order" denote different things since you have taken the trouble to give them different labels. Once again we are stuck because neither was actually defined.

Therefore, God. And to finish yet another non sequitur. That is to say this conclusion does not follow from the preceding statements, regardless of the dubious merit they had. There is no argument, reason, logic or anything else presented that would force the reader to conclude that a "prime mover" must be identical to "God", or any particular formation of a god concept. Thus this cannot be said to follow.



I am missing something here Thommo.

What is it?


Oh I know. A reasoned reply from James.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#264  Postby Thommo » Jan 30, 2020 11:52 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:I'll also be shocked when you don't actually address any of the points that Thommo made, which have already been pointed out earlier in the thread (not to say he's aping).


You're absolutely right of course, my points were made earlier in the thread, if not at quite such length and all in one place.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#265  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 30, 2020 11:59 pm

Well jamest stated quite clearly that it's the length of the response that's important, not the content of it. I must say I'm still in a state of shock that he never got around to addressing your post. Definitely couldn't see that coming, what with it being exactly the same thing he's done for every brainfart of an OP he produces.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#266  Postby Thommo » Jan 31, 2020 12:02 am

Well, probably best to let sleeping dogs lie. I just idly spotted I never replied to that comment that I'd meant to.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#267  Postby jamest » Jan 31, 2020 12:58 am

Ye of zero faith.

I will be back, in my own time, rest assured.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#268  Postby jamest » Jan 31, 2020 1:09 am

It took me a week to respond to hack even though I really respect that bloke. So, hang loose.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#269  Postby Thommo » Jan 31, 2020 4:00 am

You say you want to spend time discussing the thread topic. That isn't.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#270  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 31, 2020 6:58 am

jamest wrote:It took me a week to respond to hack even though I really respect that bloke. So, hang loose.



jamest to Hackenslash wrote:Yes, I know you've been getting away with that shit in the science forums for decades (probably), but if you utter such shite in a philosophy forum then you have nobody but yourself to blame for being laughed at as though you were a village idiot.


That's what 'respect' means in your book?
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#271  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 31, 2020 12:18 pm

It's also what 'response' means in his book, so no need to make too much of it.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#272  Postby BWE » Mar 04, 2020 7:41 pm

jamest wrote:In my opinion, religion differentiates man from God and thus makes primary the goal of man to be the best that he/she can be with the purpose of becoming closer to God and thus exempt from 'hell', thus making the relationship between 'man' and God based upon some sort of rewards basis. Implied therein, other than the fact that man is distinct to God, is that some men are better than others.

People go to church on Sundays, or sit on a mat looking Eastwards and pray, (or whatever religious bullshit you care to mention) in the hope that God will grace them and grant them entry to heaven, etc..

It's a fucking crock. God has no favourites, for nobody exists other than God. Which means, for these religious nuts, ALL OF THEM, that they have not understood that to find God and know God, they merely need to shut the fuck up and discard their clothing.

Nearly all of you guys want to get me banned here, but the truth is that if this were a religious forum half of you would actually want me to be murdered. I shit you not. For I am, undoubtedly, a heretic of the highest order.

I have nowhere to go. I'm completely alone, hence my apparent madness.

My time here is obviously coming to a close, but in the time I might have left I will gladly answer any serious questions.


I absolutely guarantee you that no UU member goes to church with that intention.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#273  Postby Cito di Pense » May 21, 2022 11:45 am

jamest wrote:
Therefore, God.


I'm sorry to resurrect this (from 2017), but the following video will make your day (and settle all your theological questions, in less than 2 minutes). Karl Malone is one of my all-time favorite players:

Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#274  Postby jamest » May 28, 2022 3:53 pm

God could dunk anything, even a donut in an infinitesimally small cup of coffee.
And it will annoy you further to know that I've never heard of Karl Malone.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#275  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 13, 2022 12:46 pm

I finally grasped what's perplexed all of us so long.

Jamest misconstrued the word 'philosophy' and thinks it means 'poetry'.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#276  Postby jamest » Jun 18, 2022 2:17 am

Spearthrower wrote:I finally grasped what's perplexed all of us so long.

Jamest misconstrued the word 'philosophy' and thinks it means 'poetry'.

I am,
Even in Siam,
Bam bam.

Damn not the lamb,
Even in Siam,
Wham bam.

I welcome all,
Even in Siam,
To my wig wam.

Imagine such a ball,
Even in Siam,
With a wig wam bam.

What a Sweet fam,
Yet without Siam,
I say damn.

Come hither and expect no glam,
Yet no dam to the dram,
Nor limits to the jam.

From the days of being in the pram,
Until these times of Uncle Sam and obsession with the cam,
I have come to see nought but utter bedlam.

Please, do no scram,
For I do not spam,
I am.

;)
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#277  Postby BWE » Jun 18, 2022 7:09 am

jamest wrote:I've had to stop watching Jason Statham in Chaos as my mind is wandering all over the place. I'll finish watching it after this post.

So, by rational default there can be no amount of order in absolute chaos. Even in systems/environments where you can find no order between 'things', the things themselves are representative of order and thus pollute said system. Hence, reason must reject such a realm as an instance of absolute chaos.

Hence, obviously, absolute chaos is a concept we can only use wrt the utter disorder of nothing. And since 'nothing' is incapable of being either ordered or disordered, the final conclusion is that said concept is utterly irrational and therefore not a feature of existence whatsoever. The bottom-line:

There is no absolute chaos, anywhere, ever.


Of course, devoid of further consideration this is hardly worth me abandoning said film, but from this we can proceed to much more significant conclusions. Firstly, let us consider the meaning of absolute order - what would that entail? Well, it would necessarily entail that the whole system/environment be 'self' explanatory, which means that the system as a whole must have a singular explanation for the order therein. And for that to happen, the system itself must somehow BE that explanation. In other words, the system must be some kind of ordered 'expression' of the 'thing' that is indicative of such order. In other words, there is a primal cause for said order.

However, "Our universe is not indicative of absolute order", I hear ye protest. Well, I will at least agree that our minds are not privy to the details of such an order, but let us consider something else:

Any measure of order is indicative of a primal cause!!

But "Why?!", I hear you protest. Well, my response would be to draw upon a previous paragraph:

"Firstly, let us consider the meaning of absolute order - what would that entail? Well, it would necessarily entail that the whole system/environment be 'self' explanatory, which means that the system as a whole must have a singular explanation for the order therein."


... Implied within this statement is that the existence of any order within a system be necessarily self-explanatory. That would even apply to the order inherent within what we call quantum mechanics.

Therefore, God.

Right, I'm going to finish watching the film. I'll be back to review the abuse later.

Abuse: this is dumb as shit. Order is an emergent property of reality. A) it take mind to create boundaries. B) self explanatory, see A.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#278  Postby BWE » Jun 18, 2022 7:12 am

jamest wrote:
Fenrir wrote:Chaos, the mathematical study of dynamic systems, is intrinsically deterministic.

You're welcome.

This is the philosophy forum and whatever mathematics says, I'm not interested. So, shove it.

Math is distinct from philosophy?
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#279  Postby Fenrir » Jun 18, 2022 7:50 am

BWE wrote:
jamest wrote:
Fenrir wrote:Chaos, the mathematical study of dynamic systems, is intrinsically deterministic.

You're welcome.

This is the philosophy forum and whatever mathematics says, I'm not interested. So, shove it.

Math is distinct from philosophy?


Jamest is distinct from philosophy.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#280  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 18, 2022 8:05 am

jamest wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:I finally grasped what's perplexed all of us so long.

Jamest misconstrued the word 'philosophy' and thinks it means 'poetry'.

I am,
Even in Siam,
Bam bam.

Damn not the lamb,
Even in Siam,
Wham bam.

I welcome all,
Even in Siam,
To my wig wam.

Imagine such a ball,
Even in Siam,
With a wig wam bam.

What a Sweet fam,
Yet without Siam,
I say damn.

Come hither and expect no glam,
Yet no dam to the dram,
Nor limits to the jam.

From the days of being in the pram,
Until these times of Uncle Sam and obsession with the cam,
I have come to see nought but utter bedlam.

Please, do no scram,
For I do not spam,
I am.

;)




Best post I've seen from you in many, many years... and I am not being in the slightest bit sarcastic, ironic, or anything other than direct.

Although I am not convinced you do in fact live in a wig-wam.
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