Like falls from 3rd floor windows? Like poorly driven cars heading towards you at 60 MPH? Like walls... I mean, what even are walls if they're not what they seem to be?
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jamest wrote:Cito di Pense wrote:BWE wrote:Then again, the parallel postulate seemed to be a law for a long time.
There's another postulate, of course, which is that mathematics can inform philosophy.
Sorry, nope. Belly-button fluff informs philosophy, which is not about assessing and incorporating facts, but is about how to identify when reasoning has failed, and facts just don't help with that. Because: denial. Can I pick 'em, or what?
If we keep contesting philosophical points with facts, we have discovered neither facts nor philosophy, let alone improved them.
Joe Biden is president of the USA.
Bugs Bunny achieved a rank of Master Sergeant in the US marines.
Both facts. Both meaningless/irrelevant from the perspective of contemplating reality with an open mind.
I challenge you to present a list or group of 'facts' (a short list will suffice) which have ANY relevance whatsoever to such an endeavour.
Let me save your head from imploding with the effort, for there's not a single fact about the whole universe which has any such relevance.
You can't just sweep philosophy under the rug on the basis of facts or lack thereof. Have a word with yourself.
jamest wrote:Spearthrower wrote:contemplating reality with an open mind
Incidentally, you're saying here that reality is independent of mind.
No, I'm saying that reality is independent of (transcends) facts about our observed universe. That there are no such facts relevant in any endeavour to contemplate reality (try naming one!). Also, that any such endeavour can only proceed upon the basis of reason alone... philosophy. Bottom line:
The ontological value of facts about the observed universe is zero.
Few, seemingly, ever fully realise this fact. A fact not about the world, but about the limits of empirical knowledge. A fact unveiled by reason alone.
The true value of philosophy goes right over most people's head because they have not considered this, or understood it.
BWE wrote:jamest wrote:Spearthrower wrote:contemplating reality with an open mind
Incidentally, you're saying here that reality is independent of mind.
No, I'm saying that reality is independent of (transcends) facts about our observed universe. That there are no such facts relevant in any endeavour to contemplate reality (try naming one!). Also, that any such endeavour can only proceed upon the basis of reason alone... philosophy. Bottom line:
The ontological value of facts about the observed universe is zero.
Few, seemingly, ever fully realise this fact. A fact not about the world, but about the limits of empirical knowledge. A fact unveiled by reason alone.
The true value of philosophy goes right over most people's head because they have not considered this, or understood it.
Fact, the universe appears to be consistent. Ie logic works. Any model which is not grounded on that fact isn't a model and has no philosophy
BWE wrote:
This too, seems a caricature of a ridiculous position.
Scientific skepticism or rational skepticism (also spelled scepticism), sometimes referred to as skeptical inquiry,[1] is a position in which one questions the veracity of claims lacking empirical evidence.
jamest wrote:
I'm not denying that our observations/experiences are ordered and therefore predictable, but these are reducible to internal events within ourselves, none of which informs us about what we actually are or whether there's a reality beyond that.
jamest wrote:Ultimately, believing that the reality of whatever you are is that of a finite body within the material universe, can be demonstrated to be a massive assumption with zero 'facts' to support the claim and certainly no sound reasoning.
jamest wrote: And as long as you hold on to that belief, then you're no more open-minded to metaphysics than most, including the religious.
jamest wrote:BWE wrote:jamest wrote:
No, I'm saying that reality is independent of (transcends) facts about our observed universe. That there are no such facts relevant in any endeavour to contemplate reality (try naming one!). Also, that any such endeavour can only proceed upon the basis of reason alone... philosophy. Bottom line:
The ontological value of facts about the observed universe is zero.
Few, seemingly, ever fully realise this fact. A fact not about the world, but about the limits of empirical knowledge. A fact unveiled by reason alone.
The true value of philosophy goes right over most people's head because they have not considered this, or understood it.
Fact, the universe appears to be consistent. Ie logic works. Any model which is not grounded on that fact isn't a model and has no philosophy
I'm not denying that our observations/experiences are ordered and therefore predictable, but these are reducible to internal events within ourselves, none of which informs us about what we actually are or whether there's a reality beyond that.
Ultimately, believing that the reality of whatever you are is that of a finite body within the material universe, can be demonstrated to be a massive assumption with zero 'facts' to support the claim and certainly no sound reasoning. And as long as you hold on to that belief, then you're no more open-minded to metaphysics than most, including the religious.
BWE wrote:Is this thread dead now?
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