There is no absolute chaos

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There is no absolute chaos

#1  Postby jamest » Jan 04, 2020 1:47 am

I've had to stop watching Jason Statham in Chaos as my mind is wandering all over the place. I'll finish watching it after this post.

So, by rational default there can be no amount of order in absolute chaos. Even in systems/environments where you can find no order between 'things', the things themselves are representative of order and thus pollute said system. Hence, reason must reject such a realm as an instance of absolute chaos.

Hence, obviously, absolute chaos is a concept we can only use wrt the utter disorder of nothing. And since 'nothing' is incapable of being either ordered or disordered, the final conclusion is that said concept is utterly irrational and therefore not a feature of existence whatsoever. The bottom-line:

There is no absolute chaos, anywhere, ever.


Of course, devoid of further consideration this is hardly worth me abandoning said film, but from this we can proceed to much more significant conclusions. Firstly, let us consider the meaning of absolute order - what would that entail? Well, it would necessarily entail that the whole system/environment be 'self' explanatory, which means that the system as a whole must have a singular explanation for the order therein. And for that to happen, the system itself must somehow BE that explanation. In other words, the system must be some kind of ordered 'expression' of the 'thing' that is indicative of such order. In other words, there is a primal cause for said order.

However, "Our universe is not indicative of absolute order", I hear ye protest. Well, I will at least agree that our minds are not privy to the details of such an order, but let us consider something else:

Any measure of order is indicative of a primal cause!!

But "Why?!", I hear you protest. Well, my response would be to draw upon a previous paragraph:

"Firstly, let us consider the meaning of absolute order - what would that entail? Well, it would necessarily entail that the whole system/environment be 'self' explanatory, which means that the system as a whole must have a singular explanation for the order therein."


... Implied within this statement is that the existence of any order within a system be necessarily self-explanatory. That would even apply to the order inherent within what we call quantum mechanics.

Therefore, God.

Right, I'm going to finish watching the film. I'll be back to review the abuse later.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#2  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 04, 2020 2:14 am

You haven't shown that the system would have to be self explanatory, whatever you mean by that. And you certainly haven't shown why you can draw the conclusion from that that it must have a singular explanation. And you also haven't shown why a singular explanation would be God.

Basically, it's word salad.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#3  Postby Fenrir » Jan 04, 2020 2:46 am

Chaos, the mathematical study of dynamic systems, is intrinsically deterministic.

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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#4  Postby jamest » Jan 04, 2020 3:00 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:You haven't shown that the system would have to be self explanatory, whatever you mean by that. And you certainly haven't shown why you can draw the conclusion from that that it must have a singular explanation. And you also haven't shown why a singular explanation would be God.

Basically, it's word salad.

Are you Donald Trump in disguise? After today's news, he needs a disguise, so you'll do.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#5  Postby jamest » Jan 04, 2020 3:01 am

Fenrir wrote:Chaos, the mathematical study of dynamic systems, is intrinsically deterministic.

You're welcome.

This is the philosophy forum and whatever mathematics says, I'm not interested. So, shove it.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#6  Postby Fenrir » Jan 04, 2020 3:15 am

jamest wrote:
Fenrir wrote:Chaos, the mathematical study of dynamic systems, is intrinsically deterministic.

You're welcome.

This is the philosophy forum and whatever mathematics says, I'm not interested. So, shove it.


Pretty sure the discipline of philosophy is not defined as "just make up any old shit that sounds good to me and unilaterally declare victory".

Again, you're welcome.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#7  Postby jamest » Jan 04, 2020 3:21 am

Fenrir wrote:
jamest wrote:
Fenrir wrote:Chaos, the mathematical study of dynamic systems, is intrinsically deterministic.

You're welcome.

This is the philosophy forum and whatever mathematics says, I'm not interested. So, shove it.


Pretty sure the discipline of philosophy is not defined as "just make up any old shit that sounds good to me and unilaterally declare victory".

Again, you're welcome.

Distinct within philosophy and the OP is the theme of reason. If you have any objections to the OP then address my reasoning therein. I have zero interest in what maths has to say about a concept it has no business in defining.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#8  Postby Thommo » Jan 04, 2020 3:33 am

Fenrir wrote:Chaos, the mathematical study of dynamic systems, is intrinsically deterministic.

You're welcome.


Absolutely true. And it's fascinating. I fondly remember reading the James Gleick book entitled "Chaos" years ago and enjoyed my dynamical systems course as well. It's even aesthetically appealing with all those representations of chaotic systems, Mandelbrot sets and so on.

That said the rigorous and logical study of order and disorder is probably information theory, which is also mathematics. It's all a bit moot unless someone has an interest in applying reason and logic to the subject at hand though.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#9  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 04, 2020 3:36 am

jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:You haven't shown that the system would have to be self explanatory, whatever you mean by that. And you certainly haven't shown why you can draw the conclusion from that that it must have a singular explanation. And you also haven't shown why a singular explanation would be God.

Basically, it's word salad.

Are you Donald Trump in disguise? After today's news, he needs a disguise, so you'll do.

You know how it looks when your only response to someone dismantling your argument is to childishly attack them, right? It's like someone points out you've got a booger hanging out of your nose and you call them a great big poo poo head.
Last edited by SafeAsMilk on Jan 04, 2020 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#10  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jan 04, 2020 3:37 am

I get that this is a cosmological argument but...

If absolute chaos is an irrational or nonsensical concept, how can its contradictory in absolute order be sensical? And why don't you define the latter but move straight to what it entails? And where do you actually show why such and such is entailed? It seems like your use of phrases and words like "it would necesssarily entail" and "must" are just put in place of "and this is what I want my next conclusion to be" rather than leading reasonably, argumentatively, or logically from one point to the next.

Where is your reasoning about your concepts? As SAM said, you've got these big gaps.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 04, 2020 3:37 am

jamest wrote:
Fenrir wrote:Chaos, the mathematical study of dynamic systems, is intrinsically deterministic.

You're welcome.


This is the philosophy forum and whatever mathematics says, I'm not interested. So, shove it.



And that's the end of this thread.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#12  Postby jamest » Jan 04, 2020 3:47 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:You haven't shown that the system would have to be self explanatory, whatever you mean by that. And you certainly haven't shown why you can draw the conclusion from that that it must have a singular explanation. And you also haven't shown why a singular explanation would be God.

Basically, it's word salad.

Are you Donald Trump in disguise? After today's news, he needs a disguise, so you'll do.

You know how it looks when your only response to someone dismantling your argument is to childishly attack them, right? It's like someone points out you've got a booger hanging out of your nose and you call them a great big poo poo head.

The problem with this is that you didn't address a single sentence of the OP at all. If I were you I'd go and look in the mirror and rub-off the orange tan.

You have the balls to call me childish after I present a perfectly serious OP and then rubbish it without addressing a single point of it? Fick aff.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 04, 2020 3:50 am

Any measure of order is indicative of a primal cause!!


Another thing you won't be interested in here is that you're attempting to make up a quarter-baked rendition of 'determinism' - which you will now pretend to know everything about even having just shown the opposite - and this will then mean you'd not be interested in things like stochasticism, which is a randomly determined process that is inherently variable and unpredictable, but we observe such processes throughout the natural world.

So yeah, basically, if you want to cut out all the complexity, all the knowledge, all the depth... and just declare God, then you've shown your 'working' and also why history has seen gods falling out of fashion as explanatory forces as more robust knowledge has been discovered.

Putting a thread into the Philosophy forum shouldn't mean the content's protected from scrutiny of other fields, nor should philosophy mean 'I get to make up any old bullshit I fancy'.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#14  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 04, 2020 3:57 am

jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:You haven't shown that the system would have to be self explanatory, whatever you mean by that. And you certainly haven't shown why you can draw the conclusion from that that it must have a singular explanation. And you also haven't shown why a singular explanation would be God.

Basically, it's word salad.

Are you Donald Trump in disguise? After today's news, he needs a disguise, so you'll do.

You know how it looks when your only response to someone dismantling your argument is to childishly attack them, right? It's like someone points out you've got a booger hanging out of your nose and you call them a great big poo poo head.

The problem with this is that you didn't address a single sentence of the OP at all.

No problem at all, since each sentence I wrote directly addressed a statement you made. Try reading it with your eyelids open this time.

If I were you I'd go and look in the mirror and rub-off the orange tan.

You have the balls to call me childish

I called your attack childish. Unfortunately it seems you read with the same amount of care that you use when constructing your arguments.

after I present a perfectly serious OP and then rubbish it without addressing a single point of it? Fick aff.

Would it help if I re-printed your post and mine and highlighted the common words in big bright letters to make it easier for you to follow?
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#15  Postby jamest » Jan 04, 2020 4:09 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:I get that this is a cosmological argument but...

If absolute chaos is an irrational or nonsensical concept, how can its contradictory in absolute order be sensical?

I congratulate you on being the first person within the thread to respond seriously and directly. Happy yew near.

To answer your question, absolute chaos is a crock because it only applies to 'nothing', so does not apply at all, whereas absolute order can only apply to God. Further, when dealing with existential/metaphysical contradictory absolutes, one would expect that one or the other is correct, so you shouldn't be surprised at all. For instance, an argument that proves that something exists wouldn't also prove that nothing exists.

And why don't you define the latter but move straight to what it entails? And where do you actually show why such and such is entailed? It seems like your use of phrases and words like "it would necesssarily entail" and "must" are just put in place of "and this is what I want my next conclusion to be" rather than leading reasonably, argumentatively, or logically from one point to the next.

Where is your reasoning about your concepts? As SAM said, you've got these big gaps.

These 'gaps' for you are mere handshakes for me. Why should I define the latter after I've defined the former? Clearly, they're opposites. Thus, absolute chaos is devoid of order and cause and rational meaning... and guess what... absolute order is... drumroll... all about order and cause and rational meaning.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#16  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 04, 2020 4:15 am

You realize how obvious it is that you have no idea how to construct a reasoned argument, right? You never support your claims and you never show how they lead to anything. It's just saying whatever you want and expecting people to accept it, there's nothing for anyone to discuss. You clearly have no interest in any sort of discussion whatsoever, which is probably why your immediate reaction to anyone pointing out these problems is to personally attack them, as you've done here.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#17  Postby jamest » Jan 04, 2020 4:23 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
Are you Donald Trump in disguise? After today's news, he needs a disguise, so you'll do.

You know how it looks when your only response to someone dismantling your argument is to childishly attack them, right? It's like someone points out you've got a booger hanging out of your nose and you call them a great big poo poo head.

The problem with this is that you didn't address a single sentence of the OP at all.

No problem at all, since each sentence I wrote directly addressed a statement you made. Try reading it with your eyelids open this time.

You're taking the piss mate. Nowhere within your first post of this thread did you address the OP. You merely insisted that I hadn't shown xyz. A retard could have said the same thing.

In future, if you want to be taken seriously, take a leaf out of spinozasgalt's book. Otherwise, expect a badger with your name on it.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#18  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 04, 2020 4:24 am

To answer your question, absolute chaos is a crock because it only applies to 'nothing', so does not apply at all, whereas absolute order can only apply to God.


And therefore to nothing.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#19  Postby jamest » Jan 04, 2020 4:25 am

Spearthrower wrote:
To answer your question, absolute chaos is a crock because it only applies to 'nothing', so does not apply at all, whereas absolute order can only apply to God.


And therefore to nothing.

If you'd had followed the argument, then God must exist.
Last edited by jamest on Jan 04, 2020 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There is no absolute chaos

#20  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 04, 2020 4:27 am

jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
You know how it looks when your only response to someone dismantling your argument is to childishly attack them, right? It's like someone points out you've got a booger hanging out of your nose and you call them a great big poo poo head.

The problem with this is that you didn't address a single sentence of the OP at all.

No problem at all, since each sentence I wrote directly addressed a statement you made. Try reading it with your eyelids open this time.

You're taking the piss mate. Nowhere within your first post of this thread did you address the OP. You merely insisted that I hadn't shown xyz. A retard could have said the same thing.

I pointed out that you hadn't shown xyz, because in fact you hadn't. That a retard could have made the same point and you'd still be apparently incapable of addressing it should tell you something about your post.

In future, if you want to be taken seriously, take a leaf out of spinozasgalt's book. Otherwise, expect a badger with your name on it.

You did read the part where spinozagalt said my points were correct, right?
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