When did I sign the Social Contract?

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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#21  Postby bogdan9310 » Feb 09, 2019 7:07 pm

You did not, it's ment to suck people in. And you're supposed to be immersed in it. But you are not, so welcome to the club.
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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#22  Postby Seabass » Feb 09, 2019 7:51 pm

The United States Book of Codes :lol:
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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#23  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 20, 2019 1:40 pm

Thommo wrote:Being born is the same as giving consent? I'm not super convinced by that, I have to say.


As reasonable as that might seem, unless you have a bigger stick than the entire society in which you were born, get back in line and pay your taxes! ;)
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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#24  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 20, 2019 1:43 pm

Thommo wrote:I wonder if the opening post could do with some context. I'm assuming there's a (an American) libertarian/anarchist context to this. Maybe this is colouring the sort of replies that are being induced.

One of the problems is it's very hard to see intuitively (well, for me at least) in what framework we might say that the social contract is a legal fiction (or social construct), but that the concept of contracts being "binding", or the concept of "natural rights" is not.



Not necessarily.

You were also born into a family, and had no choice over that. You were born in a nation state, and had no choice over that. You were born in a culture speaking a particular language and had no choice over that.

By and large, we don't tend to think of new-born infants as being able to make rational choices anyway, so you had the benefit of all those obligations thrust onto you that allowed you now to conceive of whether you want to pay your taxes or go to prison! :)
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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#25  Postby Matt_B » Apr 20, 2019 10:28 pm

The whole social contract thing was only supposed to be a metaphor anyway.

That said, maybe it would be a good idea if people actually had to sign something upon reaching adulthood. The ones who don't can then have a short holiday at the Guantanamo Resort and Spa where they learn the real meaning of tyranny, and maybe some of the ones who do sign it might take a more active interest in making sure that the government holds up their end of the deal too.

Making natural born citizens have to pass the same tests that immigrants do before getting their passport, driving licence, tax number, etc. might not be a bad idea too.
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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#26  Postby Thommo » Apr 20, 2019 10:48 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Thommo wrote:I wonder if the opening post could do with some context. I'm assuming there's a (an American) libertarian/anarchist context to this. Maybe this is colouring the sort of replies that are being induced.

One of the problems is it's very hard to see intuitively (well, for me at least) in what framework we might say that the social contract is a legal fiction (or social construct), but that the concept of contracts being "binding", or the concept of "natural rights" is not.



Not necessarily.

You were also born into a family, and had no choice over that. You were born in a nation state, and had no choice over that. You were born in a culture speaking a particular language and had no choice over that.

By and large, we don't tend to think of new-born infants as being able to make rational choices anyway, so you had the benefit of all those obligations thrust onto you that allowed you now to conceive of whether you want to pay your taxes or go to prison! :)


I essentially agree with all that. However, I can't quite see how that would relate to a self-consistent viewpoint that sees the social contract as a legal fiction (or social construct) but does not see the concept of contractual obligations and/or the concept of natural rights as being a legal fiction (or social construct).

Spooner's argument seemed, at the time, to me (if I recall correctly), to rely on exactly the assumption of such a viewpoint, but I'm certainly not convinced that there is such a thing.
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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#27  Postby Svartalf » Apr 20, 2019 10:57 pm

the social contract was a piece of shit out of the mind of a so called philosopher who, although he's highly respected and was highly influential on the French Revolution, never let his philosophy interfere with the actions of his daily life... his philosophy is highly prudish, while he was a colossal lecher, he wrote education manuals, but put all his children in orphanages... you see the picture
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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#28  Postby Hermit » Apr 21, 2019 3:27 am

Svartalf wrote:the social contract was a piece of shit out of the mind of a so called philosopher who, although he's highly respected and was highly influential on the French Revolution, never let his philosophy interfere with the actions of his daily life... his philosophy is highly prudish, while he was a colossal lecher, he wrote education manuals, but put all his children in orphanages... you see the picture

Rousseau was a bit of a bounder and inordinately quarrelsome one at that, but as an Enlightenment philosopher he was first grade. His book, On the Social Contract; or, Principles of Political Rights, was in fact revolutionary, helping to destroy the credibility of the idea that monarchs were divinely empowered to legislate.

As far as I am concerned, sovereign citizens, freemen and whatever the people who deny they are subject to laws of the land they live in call themselves are entitled to live outside those laws. By the same token they are not entitled to the rights, privileges and amenities made available in those laws. So, if they imagine they need no driver's licence, they need to be denied the use of roads. If they refuse to pay taxes they have no right to as much as walk on footpaths. In placing themselves outside the social contract Sovereign citizens, Freemen etc must logically find themselves in a position like the one illustrated in a small way below.

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Re: When did I sign the Social Contract?

#29  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 21, 2019 4:45 am

Svartalf wrote:the social contract was a piece of shit out of the mind of a so called philosopher who, although he's highly respected and was highly influential on the French Revolution, never let his philosophy interfere with the actions of his daily life... his philosophy is highly prudish, while he was a colossal lecher, he wrote education manuals, but put all his children in orphanages... you see the picture



There was more than just one proponent of social contract theories, plus reactions to it.

Durkheim, for example, generated many of his ideas out of opposition to social contract theory.

https://www.iep.utm.edu/durkheim/

This entire website is a great resource on philosophers and the works they're known for.
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