Why do we love scenery?

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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#141  Postby Thommo » Feb 10, 2018 2:56 pm

Destroyer wrote:
Thommo wrote:Assuming that there is or is not a fact of a subjective feeling is the difference here.

It's quite possible that a sophisticated enough brain scan (or at a less formal level observation of behaviours like people saying they are happy) is enough to allow other people to verify whether or not someone is happy, for example.

If a fact can be verified, then it certainly can be an objective fact. If it can't be verified then you're down to a philosophical commitment, and in truth neither can be definitely shown.

What is required for objectivity is solid universal corroboration.


Not in any dictionary, encyclopedia or authoritative text or source I've ever seen. A normal definition would be "without individual bias".

Perhaps you can explain why you say that?
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#142  Postby Fallible » Feb 10, 2018 2:56 pm

Destroyer wrote:
Thommo wrote:Assuming that there is or is not a fact of a subjective feeling is the difference here.

It's quite possible that a sophisticated enough brain scan (or at a less formal level observation of behaviours like people saying they are happy) is enough to allow other people to verify whether or not someone is happy, for example.

If a fact can be verified, then it certainly can be an objective fact. If it can't be verified then you're down to a philosophical commitment, and in truth neither can be definitely shown.

What is required for objectivity is solid universal corroboration.


If I read a book but no one sees me do so, is my having read the book subjective?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
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She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#143  Postby Destroyer » Feb 10, 2018 3:57 pm

Thommo wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
Thommo wrote:Assuming that there is or is not a fact of a subjective feeling is the difference here.

It's quite possible that a sophisticated enough brain scan (or at a less formal level observation of behaviours like people saying they are happy) is enough to allow other people to verify whether or not someone is happy, for example.

If a fact can be verified, then it certainly can be an objective fact. If it can't be verified then you're down to a philosophical commitment, and in truth neither can be definitely shown.

What is required for objectivity is solid universal corroboration.


Not in any dictionary, encyclopedia or authoritative text or source I've ever seen. A normal definition would be "without individual bias".

Perhaps you can explain why you say that?

I already have. Read my post addressed to Cito.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#144  Postby Destroyer » Feb 10, 2018 4:02 pm

Fallible wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
Thommo wrote:Assuming that there is or is not a fact of a subjective feeling is the difference here.

It's quite possible that a sophisticated enough brain scan (or at a less formal level observation of behaviours like people saying they are happy) is enough to allow other people to verify whether or not someone is happy, for example.

If a fact can be verified, then it certainly can be an objective fact. If it can't be verified then you're down to a philosophical commitment, and in truth neither can be definitely shown.

What is required for objectivity is solid universal corroboration.


If I read a book but no one sees me do so, is my having read the book subjective?

I have already thoroughly explained the difference between subjective and objective.

This will be my last post on the subject.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#145  Postby Fallible » Feb 10, 2018 4:35 pm

You haven't explained anything.
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She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#146  Postby surreptitious57 » Feb 10, 2018 4:36 pm

Destroyer wrote:
What is required for objectivity is solid universal corroboration

Do you mean universal as in absolutely everyone agreeing something is objective. An objective fact can be demonstrated without universal consensus though. So long as the fact in question cannot be falsified it is objectively true. As facts are
non falsifiable by definition this makes them objectively true. But non falsifiability does not require universal consensus

I can easily falsify your argument with an actual example : the Earth cannot be demonstrated to be spherical because of the existence of Flat Earthers who think it is flat. As the Earth is spherical as any photograph from outer space can demonstrate that invalidates your argument. So the Earth is spherical without universal consensus being required to actually confirm this
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#147  Postby Thommo » Feb 10, 2018 4:44 pm

Destroyer wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
Thommo wrote:Assuming that there is or is not a fact of a subjective feeling is the difference here.

It's quite possible that a sophisticated enough brain scan (or at a less formal level observation of behaviours like people saying they are happy) is enough to allow other people to verify whether or not someone is happy, for example.

If a fact can be verified, then it certainly can be an objective fact. If it can't be verified then you're down to a philosophical commitment, and in truth neither can be definitely shown.

What is required for objectivity is solid universal corroboration.


Not in any dictionary, encyclopedia or authoritative text or source I've ever seen. A normal definition would be "without individual bias".

Perhaps you can explain why you say that?

I already have. Read my post addressed to Cito.


No, you haven't. Expanding on the consequences of your assertion as you did there is distinct from expanding on the reasons for your assertion, which is what I'm asking about.

As I've already suggested there's a problem here in that even if with current technology we cannot discern whether or not someone is in pain objectively (although we can certainly gather lots of evidence), that would not rule out in principle a more detailed scan being possible, but not available with current technology.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#148  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 10, 2018 6:10 pm

Fallible wrote:Why would you be a dick?


It was just a manner of speaking. Some people are just too skeptical, but around here, we're not allowed to say that they're a bunch of dicks.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#149  Postby Fallible » Feb 10, 2018 6:24 pm

Did I just witness you saying that some people are too sceptical? I think I did.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#150  Postby Thommo » Feb 10, 2018 6:25 pm

Fallible wrote:Did I just witness you saying that some people are too sceptical? I think I did.


There can be only one response.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#151  Postby Fallible » Feb 10, 2018 6:26 pm

:lol:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#152  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 10, 2018 8:42 pm

Fallible wrote:Did I just witness you saying that some people are too sceptical? I think I did.


You did. From where I sit, I'm loving the scenery:

When I saw that Tesla Roadster, Starman at the wheel and "Don't panic" on the dash, with the Earth dwindling in the background, I had something of a spiritual awakening. When I saw those booster rockets returning to the target landing sites on pillars of fire, I saw it in amazing slow motion, and the soundtrack in my pixilated awareness was "Also sprach Zarathustra".

What really did it for me, though, was when that California Assemblywoman on the vanguard of the "Me, too" movement got taken down for sexual harassment, grabbing the yarbles of a subordinate while she was stinking drunk. She says she could not have done something like that, because she disapproves of such shenanigans. I decided then and there not to be skeptical of the accuser's claims.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Feb 10, 2018 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#153  Postby Fallible » Feb 10, 2018 8:44 pm

That's better. Things went all weird for a minute.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#154  Postby Destroyer » Feb 12, 2018 6:59 pm

Fallible wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
Thommo wrote:Assuming that there is or is not a fact of a subjective feeling is the difference here.

It's quite possible that a sophisticated enough brain scan (or at a less formal level observation of behaviours like people saying they are happy) is enough to allow other people to verify whether or not someone is happy, for example.

If a fact can be verified, then it certainly can be an objective fact. If it can't be verified then you're down to a philosophical commitment, and in truth neither can be definitely shown.

What is required for objectivity is solid universal corroboration.


If I read a book but no one sees me do so, is my having read the book subjective?

I am going to give some of you the benefit of the doubt here. I am aware that the vast majority of members on this site seem to be academically well educated. Unfortunately that is no substitute for depth of thought. On that basis I am going to assume that this is the reason for your failure to comprehend the subjective and objective divide, and provide you with the necessary information, rather than truncating the conversation because of the few who can always be relied upon to be perverse simply due to the source from which any information emanates.
Whenever we are discussing objectivity in relation to the subjective consciousness, what we are talking about is ontology i.e. the Nature that has Reality as opposed to any imagined or illusory claims about Nature. From this perspective the way that objective is colloquially used: to be impartial, unbiased, whatever is external to the individual, does not apply; simply because these terminologies are not referencing the nature of Reality i.e. the Nature that possesses the authority/independence to exist. Therefore objective Reality is not the same as the commonly used objective. Objective Reality is all about having substance/solidity that is universally detectable, as opposed to what is merely imagined and illusory and therefore cannot be universally detected in Nature.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#155  Postby Fallible » Feb 12, 2018 7:02 pm

Oh, I'm bored with this now. Sorry.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#156  Postby Destroyer » Feb 12, 2018 7:03 pm

Fallible wrote:Oh, I'm bored with this now. Sorry.

Thankfully you are not the only member on this board!
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#157  Postby Fallible » Feb 12, 2018 7:08 pm

Yes, someone else might have more patience.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#158  Postby Destroyer » Feb 12, 2018 7:12 pm

Fallible wrote:Yes, someone else might have more patience.

They might also learn something new.
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#159  Postby Fallible » Feb 12, 2018 7:13 pm

Have you come back to finally make your big revelation then?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Why do we love scenery?

#160  Postby Destroyer » Feb 12, 2018 7:14 pm

Fallible wrote:Have you come back to finally make your big revelation then?

All in good time.
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