Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#21  Postby TopCat » Jan 08, 2020 12:39 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Rejoicing at the death of a human being is ethically suspect.

It's this that's not obvious to me.

Take Reynhard Sinaga, for instance. I think it would be absolutely excellent if he was dead. The human race would be better off without him and his genes, and if he died, I think it would be a positive cause for rejoicing, in addition to the rejoicing in the fact that he wouldn't be inflicting further suffering on others. Quite apart from the additional rejoicing at not having to pay for his continued existence for the next many decades.

Why is this position ethically suspect?
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#22  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 08, 2020 12:52 pm

Well, it's not his genes that are suspect, it's his actions.

What does his death serve? If he's in prison, he's no more a danger to society than if he were dead. Obviously, he's scum... but why would you rejoice at his death? I can imagine his victims getting some visceral satisfaction from that, maybe even imagining him dying painfully... but why you?

Don't get me wrong, if he died and you rejoiced, I wouldn't have any complaints to point at you - I wouldn't care particularly, but I wouldn't really understand it either.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#23  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 08, 2020 1:47 pm

Joy at an improvement of the general human experience?

It would take something a little more specific for me to rejoice. But seemingly not so specific as to be personal, for instance there's nobody I know personally that I'd be happy if they were dead. Some serial killer somewhere, I'm glad they aren't harming anyone anymore but no sort of visceral joy. Now if Trump or McConnell were to croak while still in office, I'd literally dance. Strange thing :dunno:

And I get tuco's point, that looks like signaling but I am just being honest, and I don't think having said so makes me look good.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#24  Postby tuco » Jan 08, 2020 2:24 pm

The question really should be, when its ok to rejoice at someone's death?
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#25  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 08, 2020 2:57 pm

I guess it depends on what you mean by ok. Broadly socially acceptable?
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#26  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 08, 2020 3:00 pm

Now if Trump or McConnell were to croak while still in office, I'd literally dance.


I'd undoubtedly consider it of benefit to the US and the world, but I wouldn't take personal pleasure from it. Trump's still got a young son, and even if they're mad as a bunch of squirrels in a bag, a lot of people would still be genuinely upset.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#27  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 08, 2020 3:29 pm

I bet you I've encountered Trump IRL more often than his youngest son has. Melania might be upset that her meal ticket's gone and I doubt his greedy, corrupt children would be shedding any tears when the cameras aren't rolling. Maybe wishing just once he'd been a father figure to them, but those are tears they've always had. Try as I might, I can't make myself feel bad for anyone that would mourn his death, they mourn him because he told them it's okay to hate other people, to be petty and vengeful and to sell their alleged principles to get what they want. I know there's a kind of irony in that, and I do think yours is a better stance. My only comfort is that this visceral response is extremely limited.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#28  Postby tuco » Jan 08, 2020 3:30 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:I guess it depends on what you mean by ok. Broadly socially acceptable?


In the context of OP. If we accept the premise that what is ok is not immoral, while rejecting let's say universal morality, then we get to what I hinted at. It is ok, not immoral, when it's socially acceptable and only a few will rejoice when it's not socially acceptable, when it does not benefit them or perhaps rather when it hurts their let's say image among their peers. I know its obvious but that's how it is.

Classical examples:




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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#29  Postby Hermit » Jan 08, 2020 5:33 pm

tuco wrote:The question really should be, when its ok to rejoice at someone's death?

SafeAsMilk wrote:I guess it depends on what you mean by ok. Broadly socially acceptable?

For some reason this question and answer reminds me of a vignette that took place during the proceedings of the recent Financial Services Royal Commission, which found an amazing number of monstrously large worms in a number of cans labelled "Banks", "Insurance", "Superannuation" and so on.

One day Michael Hodge, QC, senior counsel assisting the commissioner was discussing the matter of charging customers fees for services not rendered by one of the "big four" banks, the National Australia Bank (NAB) with its CEO, Andrew Thorburn. I won't go into details, but at one stage Hodge asked: "I’m attempting to assess with you whether when you reflect on it now, regardless of what the intention was, this was an ethical approach?" Thorburn replied: "Well, it depends what you mean by ethics."

Two months later the bank's CEO and its Chairman resigned and eventually the NAB agreed to compensate its customers to the tune of $100 million. It still managed to post a net profit of $1.7 billion in the first quarter of 2019.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#30  Postby Ken Fabian » Jan 08, 2020 11:05 pm

It seems to me the loss or gain from any particular death - however that might be measured - is independent of how people feel about it. The further removed from that person the weaker the basis for passing judgement; rejoicing at the death of someone who abused you and people close to you is different to rejoicing at the death of a reviled public figure for whom any judgement is based entirely on second hand information, which may or may not be correct.

I think the human capacity for feeling satisfaction and even pleasure at bad things happening to people who we think deserve it is one of our most dangerous traits - because we do not require any actual weighing of evidence to decide someone deserves it. Just being told they are bad can be enough. Or that they share the same ethnicity, beliefs or affiliations as someone we think is bad can be enough.

I think our worst conflicts and worst massacres are enabled this capacity for feeling good about horrible things happening to people we do not like and who we believe deserve it; horrific and painful violence against other humans can and does bring rejoicing because of this trait. The very acts that cause us to deem victims of our good violence deserving may well have been motivated by the very same belief that their victims were bad and deserved it.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#31  Postby TopCat » Jan 10, 2020 10:21 pm

^^ This is a complete strawman.

I said nothing about rejoicing at deaths when only second hand information is available, and I said nothing about feeling good about inflicting horrific and painful violence. I'm not condoning, sanctioning, or advocating mob 'justice', or torture.

And don't give me any of this 'we' with your:

we do not require any actual weighing of evidence to decide someone deserves it


Who is this 'we'? It sure as fuck doesn't include me.

It's a hell of a leap from believing that the human race would, overall, be better off without a particular individual, and saying anything about some xenophobic crusade. The latter does not follow from the former.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#32  Postby Hermit » Jan 11, 2020 5:31 am

TopCat wrote:^^ This is a complete strawman.

I said nothing about rejoicing at deaths when only second hand information is available, and I said nothing about feeling good about inflicting horrific and painful violence. I'm not condoning, sanctioning, or advocating mob 'justice', or torture.

And don't give me any of this 'we' with your:

we do not require any actual weighing of evidence to decide someone deserves it


Who is this 'we'? It sure as fuck doesn't include me.

It's a hell of a leap from believing that the human race would, overall, be better off without a particular individual, and saying anything about some xenophobic crusade. The latter does not follow from the former.

I think you're taking the use of the use of the pronoun "we" a bit too personally, especially since Ken Fabian's post was not specifically aimed at you. He did not quote your post, and there are eight others between yours and his.

To be fair, I would not have used the first person plural pronoun myself. It's makes his post too much like a blanket statement, a generalisation taken just a bit too far. If you re-read that post and replaced each "we" with "too many people" or something like that as you went along, would you perhaps view Ken Fabian's comments a little more favourably?
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#33  Postby zoon » Jan 11, 2020 10:03 am

TopCat's query in the OP was why it could be ethically suspect in general to rejoice at someone's death, and I think Ken Fabian's post does address that? If ethics is the business of trying to manage group emotions and sanctions so that everyone (or nearly everyone) in the group benefits, it is the case that group hatred towards outgroups has become dangerous in the modern world, whereas it was more likely to be a survival factor in the environment where humans originated, so there's a likelihood we've evolved to find it all too easy? (Spearthrower may object to this reasoning?) In the modern world, xenophobia is (to take two examples) one of the factors making a global nuclear war more likely, and effective global action against climate change less likely.

As TopCat says, it's reasonable enough, for example, if a victim of abuse rejoices in the death of the abuser, because they will indeed be happier. This is consistent with a general wariness around rejoicing at a person's death.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#34  Postby felltoearth » Jan 11, 2020 9:11 pm

I thought about this thread while watching a Matt Dillahunty video about losing his grandfather and he said he was happy when he died. He backtracked and said it was more relief because he was suffering for so long. While he wasn’t gleeful, he did say his death made him happy (he didn’t retract the statement after all, only clarified.)
This makes me fall on the side that at the very least, I am happy when someone dies who has created suffering in the world with impunity.


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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#35  Postby Ken Fabian » Jan 11, 2020 9:31 pm

Topcat said -
Who is this 'we'? It sure as fuck doesn't include me.


I said "we" to be inclusive, because I was not excluding myself; I feel something akin to rejoicing when the bad guy - someone the information presented to me says is bad - is taken down. Dies. Is killed. Is caught and punished. Has something as bad as he (allegedly) did done to him.

I don't think I am unusual. It was a more general observation about an aspect of human nature as I've observed it, that I think rejoicing at someone's death looks like an example of. I can and will feel other things too and I can think about what I really know and I may decide it is inappropriate, or that those seeking to incite that response are irresponsible. But it can also lead me to effectively condone horrible and painful violence such as violence that appears to be necessary acts of warfare.

Topcat - if you do not feel anything like rejoicing when the bad guy - that you are being told is bad (and you choose to believe it) but have no personal acquaintance with - gets taken down then I think you are an exceptional individual.

Poetic "justice" features so highly in dramatic entertainment because so many people will rejoice. I do think that it is rare that people do not feel some kind of satisfaction akin to rejoicing when someone they believe is bad has something bad happen to them in turn - such as dying. I made that comment because I think that the same emotional response is at work.
Last edited by Ken Fabian on Jan 11, 2020 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#36  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 11, 2020 9:34 pm

satisfaction akin to rejoicing


I think there's a wide gulf between the two. That sense of justice done is fierce, but it is not joyous - at least for me.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#37  Postby Thommo » Jan 11, 2020 9:35 pm

I don't think what we feel is really at debate, it's about how we act. I would certainly endorse anyone's right to think and feel what they will and say what they like in the privacy of their own home.

But when I see Westboro Baptists picketing some funeral I think they are colossal arseholes. I don't really care how they feel and I'm aware that what they are doing is not illegal and thus "ok" on legal grounds. But I'm not indifferent to it. I don't like the impact they have on the bereaved even though I don't know those people or the deceased.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#38  Postby Ken Fabian » Jan 11, 2020 10:35 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
satisfaction akin to rejoicing


I think there's a wide gulf between the two. That sense of justice done is fierce, but it is not joyous - at least for me.


It looks to me that what the title question and opening post names rejoicing and refers to as pleasure could be named something else - but I think that response/feeling, whatever it is named, allows us to evaluate and potentially tolerate and condone violence according to what we think we know about those it is being done to.

I cannot find it - way too long ago and my search terms failed to turn it up - but I recall reading about a study that showed people getting pleasure responses to observing "just" punishment. If I recall correctly it was an experiment where the participants were present for a (faked) bag snatch robbery and their responses to the perpetrator being punished were observed. I don't know if that is "rejoicing" but I think it is the same response whatever it is named.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#39  Postby laklak » Jan 12, 2020 1:43 am

This whole civilization thing we're doing here, skin deep stuff, we're only a hundred years or so from public hangings. Most of us here think this democracy/rule of law paradigm is normal.
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Re: Why isn't it ok to rejoice at someone's death?

#40  Postby pelfdaddy » Jan 12, 2020 5:48 am

When I am tempted to rejoice at the death of a particularly useless and injurious piece of shit, I think about infants. You know...those tiny packages of joy and promise that we love to squeeze. It helps me to elevate my thoughts to a level where I prefer to be--even though it is difficult--to recall that the above-referenced piece of shit was once one of these. I actually try to picture them in the crib, sitting in Mommy's lap, suckling, cooing...

There was a time when they were truly innocent. Something happened. That's all.

I have a similar strategy when I am tempted to place too much trust in the authority of an especially bright thinker. I just imagine them as infants also.
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