## A question on photons and volume

Study matter and its motion through spacetime...

### A question on photons and volume

I understand that photons lack mass, so if they lack mass, that must mean they lack volume. Of course, volume is measured in cubic meters, with area being measured in square meters. I suppose in this sense, photons could lack volume, but does that mean they lack dimensions? It doesn't appear this could be the case if photons have wavelengths.
The Apistevist

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

Sorry I'm very late answering, but I didn't see this until now, as I don't visit this site so much any more.

Photons only lack REST MASS, not mass (ie, energy) generally. As they are never at rest, but travel at the speed of light, they always have some energy in spite of the zero rest mass.

I'm not sure it's sensible to talk of the volume of a photon, any more than the volume of an electron (which does have mass and energy).
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DavidMcC

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

Another way to look at this involves the Lorentz transform. When applied to a photon moving in the positive x direction at c we note that lengths along x are contracted to zero relative to a rest frame observer.

Volume is a product of x, y and z lengths. In the case of an x-moving photon, there is no length in x. Consequently the volume product vanishes.
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newolder

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

newolder wrote:Another way to look at this involves the Lorentz transform. When applied to a photon moving in the positive x direction at c we note that lengths along x are contracted to zero relative to a rest frame observer.

Volume is a product of x, y and z lengths. In the case of an x-moving photon, there is no length in x. Consequently the volume product vanishes.

Well, you could argue that, way, but it could cause confusion, as there is no specific volume associated with a photon in the first place.
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DavidMcC

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

DavidMcC wrote:
newolder wrote:Another way to look at this involves the Lorentz transform. When applied to a photon moving in the positive x direction at c we note that lengths along x are contracted to zero relative to a rest frame observer.

Volume is a product of x, y and z lengths. In the case of an x-moving photon, there is no length in x. Consequently the volume product vanishes.

Well, you could argue that, way, but it could cause confusion, as there is no specific volume associated with a photon in the first place.

From the 1st post:
... I suppose in this sense, photons could lack volume, but does that mean they lack dimensions? It doesn't appear this could be the case if photons have wavelengths.

The Lorentz transform shows how photons "lack" the forward, x dimension. This could only cause confusion in an idiot's brain.
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newolder

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

What insult, DavidMcC? I've read elsewhere that you display the characteristics of some kind of persecution complex but this is the first time I can recall I've seen it displayed openly. The algebra of the Lorentz transform is mid-school simple - if an object travels at c relative to "me" then I observe it displays no thickness along the axis of travel.
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newolder

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

I believe David is referring to this as the insult.

newolder wrote:This could only cause confusion in an idiot's brain.

I can only assume that David has chosen to consider this an insult because he's self declaring as having been confused.
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Sendraks

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

Sendraks wrote:I believe David is referring to this as the insult.

newolder wrote:This could only cause confusion in an idiot's brain.

I can only assume that David has chosen to consider this an insult because he's self declaring as having been confused.

I see. Now that I have introduced the terms "simple" and "thickness" into the topic, any reaction thereto could also be interesting.
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

newolder wrote:What insult, DavidMcC? I've read elsewhere that you display the characteristics of some kind of persecution complex but this is the first time I can recall I've seen it displayed openly.

That's your interpretation. You have to bear in mind your own issues. I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.
The algebra of the Lorentz transform is mid-school simple - if an object travels at c relative to "me" then I observe it displays no thickness along the axis of travel.

Of course it is, but that was not the issue. It is just playing with words to talk of the size of a photon in any case, as I have already pointed out. Interpretting the size of a photon in terms of its wavelength is dubious, to say the least. Better to say that photons only have the size that their associated EM field has (which can fill the entire universe, or not, depending on whether the light-source is inside a box).
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### Re: A question on photons and volume

DavidMcC wrote: I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.

Wow. Is there no end to this conspiracy fuelled bullshit?

At what point David are you going to come to accept that no one gives a flying fuck about the FTL thread apart from you. Literally, no one. The only time it EVER gets brought up, is by you. Which should give anyone who isn't a completely self-obsesses fuckwit, a clue as to how much anyone cares.
Last edited by Sendraks on Jul 04, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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### Re: A question on photons and volume

Sendraks wrote:
DavidMcC wrote: I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.

Wow. Is there no end to this conspiracy fuelled bullshit?

At what point David are you going to come to accept that no one gives a flying fuck about the FTL thread apart from you. Literally, no one. ...

Rubbish. Newolder actually stormed out over my assertion that there is no FTL travel. Furthermore, Cdesign... posted about it, on the basis that a (former?) employee of NASA, JPL (Harold White) made FTL claims, and he must be correct, right?

EDIT: Although both of these occurred years ago, neither ever admitted to being wrong.
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DavidMcC

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

Jesus.
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felltoearth

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

DavidMcC wrote:
EDIT: Although both of these occurred years ago, neither ever admitted to being wrong.

And you keep bringing it up after all these years.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

DavidMcC wrote:
newolder wrote:What insult, DavidMcC? I've read elsewhere that you display the characteristics of some kind of persecution complex but this is the first time I can recall I've seen it displayed openly.

That's your interpretation. You have to bear in mind your own issues. I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.

I'd ask for clarification but this^ is not on topic.

The algebra of the Lorentz transform is mid-school simple - if an object travels at c relative to "me" then I observe it displays no thickness along the axis of travel.

Of course it is, but that was not the issue. It is just playing with words to talk of the size of a photon in any case, as I have already pointed out. Interpretting the size of a photon in terms of its wavelength is dubious, to say the least. Better to say that photons only have the size that their associated EM field has (which can fill the entire universe, or not, depending on whether the light-source is inside a box).

Who interpreted the size of a photon in terms of its wavelength? In the standard model of particle physics, electromagnetism is modelled by a group of ideas known collectively as U(1). The 1 refers to 1 complex dimension.

A packet of massless e-m radiation energy moving at c relative to "me" displays 0 thickness along its axis of travel (Lorentz). Vibrations of the e-m radiation in and around the other two orthogonal axes relate to the amplitude, wavelength and polarisation state of the energy (Maxwell). Volume is length x breadth x height and hence, an object with 0 length has 0 volume (Euclid). Does the mathematics behind these words answer the OP's question?
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H

newolder

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

DavidMcC wrote:
newolder wrote:What insult, DavidMcC? I've read elsewhere that you display the characteristics of some kind of persecution complex but this is the first time I can recall I've seen it displayed openly.

That's your interpretation. You have to bear in mind your own issues. I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.

You really believe the entire universe revolves around you and your pet hypotheses don't you?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."

Thomas Eshuis

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

Tired of limp, flyaway light? Try new Elvive Photon Volumizer Seurm!
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laklak
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### Re: A question on photons and volume

laklak wrote:Tired of limp, flyaway light? Try new Elvive Photon Volumizer Seurm!

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

laklak wrote:Tired of limp, flyaway light? Try new Elvive Photon Volumizer Seurm!

Have you been at that bottle of sea rum again.
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H

newolder

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### Re: A question on photons and volume

Plus, my Feynman diagrams have too many squiggly things in them. I need to have them straightened, so my light can pass for white.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.

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