A question on photons and volume

Study matter and its motion through spacetime...

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

A question on photons and volume

#1  Postby The Apistevist » Apr 04, 2018 9:41 pm

I understand that photons lack mass, so if they lack mass, that must mean they lack volume. Of course, volume is measured in cubic meters, with area being measured in square meters. I suppose in this sense, photons could lack volume, but does that mean they lack dimensions? It doesn't appear this could be the case if photons have wavelengths.
The Apistevist
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 8

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: A question on photons and volume

#2  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 02, 2018 6:36 pm

Sorry I'm very late answering, but I didn't see this until now, as I don't visit this site so much any more.

Photons only lack REST MASS, not mass (ie, energy) generally. As they are never at rest, but travel at the speed of light, they always have some energy in spite of the zero rest mass.

I'm not sure it's sensible to talk of the volume of a photon, any more than the volume of an electron (which does have mass and energy).
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 65
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#3  Postby newolder » Jul 03, 2018 8:37 am

Another way to look at this involves the Lorentz transform. When applied to a photon moving in the positive x direction at c we note that lengths along x are contracted to zero relative to a rest frame observer.

Volume is a product of x, y and z lengths. In the case of an x-moving photon, there is no length in x. Consequently the volume product vanishes.
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 5231
Age: 7
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#4  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 03, 2018 12:42 pm

newolder wrote:Another way to look at this involves the Lorentz transform. When applied to a photon moving in the positive x direction at c we note that lengths along x are contracted to zero relative to a rest frame observer.

Volume is a product of x, y and z lengths. In the case of an x-moving photon, there is no length in x. Consequently the volume product vanishes.

Well, you could argue that, way, but it could cause confusion, as there is no specific volume associated with a photon in the first place.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 65
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#5  Postby newolder » Jul 03, 2018 12:46 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
newolder wrote:Another way to look at this involves the Lorentz transform. When applied to a photon moving in the positive x direction at c we note that lengths along x are contracted to zero relative to a rest frame observer.

Volume is a product of x, y and z lengths. In the case of an x-moving photon, there is no length in x. Consequently the volume product vanishes.

Well, you could argue that, way, but it could cause confusion, as there is no specific volume associated with a photon in the first place.


From the 1st post:
... I suppose in this sense, photons could lack volume, but does that mean they lack dimensions? It doesn't appear this could be the case if photons have wavelengths.


The Lorentz transform shows how photons "lack" the forward, x dimension. This could only cause confusion in an idiot's brain.
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 5231
Age: 7
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#6  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 04, 2018 10:14 am

I've reported your insult, newolder.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 65
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#7  Postby newolder » Jul 04, 2018 11:11 am

What insult, DavidMcC? I've read elsewhere that you display the characteristics of some kind of persecution complex but this is the first time I can recall I've seen it displayed openly. The algebra of the Lorentz transform is mid-school simple - if an object travels at c relative to "me" then I observe it displays no thickness along the axis of travel.
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 5231
Age: 7
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: A question on photons and volume

#8  Postby Sendraks » Jul 04, 2018 11:18 am

I believe David is referring to this as the insult.

newolder wrote:This could only cause confusion in an idiot's brain.


I can only assume that David has chosen to consider this an insult because he's self declaring as having been confused.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 14875
Age: 102
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#9  Postby newolder » Jul 04, 2018 11:39 am

Sendraks wrote:I believe David is referring to this as the insult.

newolder wrote:This could only cause confusion in an idiot's brain.


I can only assume that David has chosen to consider this an insult because he's self declaring as having been confused.


I see. Now that I have introduced the terms "simple" and "thickness" into the topic, any reaction thereto could also be interesting. :popcorn:
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 5231
Age: 7
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#10  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 04, 2018 11:48 am

newolder wrote:What insult, DavidMcC? I've read elsewhere that you display the characteristics of some kind of persecution complex but this is the first time I can recall I've seen it displayed openly.

That's your interpretation. You have to bear in mind your own issues. I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.
The algebra of the Lorentz transform is mid-school simple - if an object travels at c relative to "me" then I observe it displays no thickness along the axis of travel.

Of course it is, but that was not the issue. It is just playing with words to talk of the size of a photon in any case, as I have already pointed out. Interpretting the size of a photon in terms of its wavelength is dubious, to say the least. Better to say that photons only have the size that their associated EM field has (which can fill the entire universe, or not, depending on whether the light-source is inside a box).
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 65
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#11  Postby Sendraks » Jul 04, 2018 11:58 am

DavidMcC wrote: I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.


Wow. Is there no end to this conspiracy fuelled bullshit?

At what point David are you going to come to accept that no one gives a flying fuck about the FTL thread apart from you. Literally, no one. The only time it EVER gets brought up, is by you. Which should give anyone who isn't a completely self-obsesses fuckwit, a clue as to how much anyone cares.
Last edited by Sendraks on Jul 04, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 14875
Age: 102
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#12  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 04, 2018 12:04 pm

Sendraks wrote:
DavidMcC wrote: I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.


Wow. Is there no end to this conspiracy fuelled bullshit?

At what point David are you going to come to accept that no one gives a flying fuck about the FTL thread apart from you. Literally, no one. ...

Rubbish. Newolder actually stormed out over my assertion that there is no FTL travel. Furthermore, Cdesign... posted about it, on the basis that a (former?) employee of NASA, JPL (Harold White) made FTL claims, and he must be correct, right? :roll:

EDIT: Although both of these occurred years ago, neither ever admitted to being wrong.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 65
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#13  Postby felltoearth » Jul 04, 2018 12:10 pm

Jesus.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 9549
Age: 51

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#14  Postby Sendraks » Jul 04, 2018 12:28 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
EDIT: Although both of these occurred years ago, neither ever admitted to being wrong.


And you keep bringing it up after all these years.
You and you alone, just so you can make your little conspiracy theory fuelled comments about the motivations of your interlocutors.
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
User avatar
Sendraks
 
Name: D-Money Jr
Posts: 14875
Age: 102
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#15  Postby newolder » Jul 04, 2018 12:57 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
newolder wrote:What insult, DavidMcC? I've read elsewhere that you display the characteristics of some kind of persecution complex but this is the first time I can recall I've seen it displayed openly.

That's your interpretation. You have to bear in mind your own issues. I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.

I'd ask for clarification but this^ is not on topic.

The algebra of the Lorentz transform is mid-school simple - if an object travels at c relative to "me" then I observe it displays no thickness along the axis of travel.

Of course it is, but that was not the issue. It is just playing with words to talk of the size of a photon in any case, as I have already pointed out. Interpretting the size of a photon in terms of its wavelength is dubious, to say the least. Better to say that photons only have the size that their associated EM field has (which can fill the entire universe, or not, depending on whether the light-source is inside a box).

Who interpreted the size of a photon in terms of its wavelength? :scratch: In the standard model of particle physics, electromagnetism is modelled by a group of ideas known collectively as U(1). The 1 refers to 1 complex dimension.

A packet of massless e-m radiation energy moving at c relative to "me" displays 0 thickness along its axis of travel (Lorentz). Vibrations of the e-m radiation in and around the other two orthogonal axes relate to the amplitude, wavelength and polarisation state of the energy (Maxwell). Volume is length x breadth x height and hence, an object with 0 length has 0 volume (Euclid). Does the mathematics behind these words answer the OP's question?
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 5231
Age: 7
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: A question on photons and volume

#16  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 04, 2018 2:36 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
newolder wrote:What insult, DavidMcC? I've read elsewhere that you display the characteristics of some kind of persecution complex but this is the first time I can recall I've seen it displayed openly.

That's your interpretation. You have to bear in mind your own issues. I suspect that, for years, you have been waiting for a chance to hit back after I exposed your FTL travel nonsense as just that.

You really believe the entire universe revolves around you and your pet hypotheses don't you? :roll:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 29052
Age: 29
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#17  Postby laklak » Jul 04, 2018 2:46 pm

Tired of limp, flyaway light? Try new Elvive Photon Volumizer Seurm!
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 18453
Age: 64
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#18  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 04, 2018 2:51 pm

laklak wrote:Tired of limp, flyaway light? Try new Elvive Photon Volumizer Seurm!


Have you anything to restore a vibrant youthful color to my quarks?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 26742
Age: 22
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#19  Postby newolder » Jul 04, 2018 3:00 pm

laklak wrote:Tired of limp, flyaway light? Try new Elvive Photon Volumizer Seurm!

Have you been at that bottle of sea rum again. :nono:
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 5231
Age: 7
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: A question on photons and volume

#20  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 04, 2018 3:07 pm

Plus, my Feynman diagrams have too many squiggly things in them. I need to have them straightened, so my light can pass for white.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 26742
Age: 22
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Physics

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest