Endless fuel and a closed cycle

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Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#1  Postby Macdoc » Apr 17, 2017 6:42 am

sounds like an impossibility .....read on..

Metal as fuel? These Canadian scientists are working to make it happen
Research into new fuel technology could provide cleaner alternative to power vehicles
By Nicole Mortillaro, CBC News Posted: Apr 16, 2017 5:00 AM ET Last Updated: Apr 16, 2017 5:00 AM ET


http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/scien ... -1.4058398
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#2  Postby Manticore » Apr 17, 2017 10:47 am

Hmmm... Powered by a thermite bomb. Wonder what the pistons and cylinders would be made of.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#3  Postby theropod » Apr 17, 2017 11:22 am

Manticore wrote:Hmmm... Powered by a thermite bomb. Wonder what the pistons and cylinders would be made of.


Ceramics?

Zinc powder, and other metals, will also burn. Pass a low voltage current through steel wool and see what happens.

Alternatives to the internal combustion piston engine would be a better choice here. A Stirling engine would be able to harvest the heat, as would a steam generator.

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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#4  Postby Manticore » Apr 17, 2017 3:52 pm

Stirling engines are amazing. Unfortunately, to get reasonable efficiency, the internal pressure has to be as high as possible. Sealing crankshaft bearings becomes a major problem. Best bet is probably a version with internal alternators (then you only have to seal the wires). Look up free piston Stirling engines for some examples of just how complicated it can get.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#5  Postby Macdoc » Apr 17, 2017 4:09 pm

Is it possible to spray diameter controlled iron particles into a turbine engine?
( fine volcanic dust causes jet engines to belch fireballs and "surge". )
( excellent read )
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/capt ... led-2013-2

Still, materials are the key.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#6  Postby theropod » Apr 17, 2017 4:26 pm

Manticore wrote:Stirling engines are amazing. Unfortunately, to get reasonable efficiency, the internal pressure has to be as high as possible. Sealing crankshaft bearings becomes a major problem. Best bet is probably a version with internal alternators (then you only have to seal the wires). Look up free piston Stirling engines for some examples of just how complicated it can get.


Yep, having built a couple from junk I know all this. If the Stirling is encased in a sealed container as you describe the working gas can be something like helium which really ups the efficiency. Free piston versions are indeed complicated.

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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#7  Postby crank » Apr 17, 2017 4:32 pm

I think the key is still a new battery, some leap in tech. Of course I've been saying that for over 30 years. But jesus, the potential is phenomenal. That insanely powerful electric engine for example, and heated or cooled clothing. Or a dildo that could run for years without needing a charge, just imagine the possibilities.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#8  Postby Macdoc » Apr 18, 2017 2:28 am

Batteries have their own set of environmental problems tho perhaps a hybrid iron fueled is a cool idea.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#9  Postby Manticore » Apr 18, 2017 7:03 am

theropod wrote:
Manticore wrote:Stirling engines are amazing. Unfortunately, to get reasonable efficiency, the internal pressure has to be as high as possible. Sealing crankshaft bearings becomes a major problem. Best bet is probably a version with internal alternators (then you only have to seal the wires). Look up free piston Stirling engines for some examples of just how complicated it can get.


Yep, having built a couple from junk I know all this. If the Stirling is encased in a sealed container as you describe the working gas can be something like helium which really ups the efficiency. Free piston versions are indeed complicated.

RS


Nice one! Got any photos?
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#10  Postby theropod » Apr 18, 2017 11:04 am

Manticore wrote:
theropod wrote:
Manticore wrote:Stirling engines are amazing. Unfortunately, to get reasonable efficiency, the internal pressure has to be as high as possible. Sealing crankshaft bearings becomes a major problem. Best bet is probably a version with internal alternators (then you only have to seal the wires). Look up free piston Stirling engines for some examples of just how complicated it can get.


Yep, having built a couple from junk I know all this. If the Stirling is encased in a sealed container as you describe the working gas can be something like helium which really ups the efficiency. Free piston versions are indeed complicated.

RS


Nice one! Got any photos?


How about a video?

.

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Made from various junk. The displacer is floral arrangement foam, and the displacer chamber is a coleman lantern globe. The bearings are from dead hard drives. The flywheel is a masonry blade for a circular saw. The hot/cold end plates are pieces of one of those rapid thawing boards (just aluminum).

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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#11  Postby juju7 » Apr 18, 2017 11:04 am

Macdoc wrote:sounds like an impossibility .....read on..

Metal as fuel? These Canadian scientists are working to make it happen
Research into new fuel technology could provide cleaner alternative to power vehicles
By Nicole Mortillaro, CBC News Posted: Apr 16, 2017 5:00 AM ET Last Updated: Apr 16, 2017 5:00 AM ET


http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/scien ... -1.4058398


Stupid idea.
Iron may have the energy content of hydrocarbons, but is 8 times the density.
For the same amount of energy as a 50l tank you'd need 400kg iron.
Worse is that once you burn it, you still have to carry it as spent fuel for recycling. It will weigh even more - 550kg.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#12  Postby zulumoose » Apr 18, 2017 1:14 pm

Metal fuel is created when a metal is ground into a powder, which is then fed into a burner. It's so efficient that it releases as much energy as gasoline does — but more energy and heat is generated per litre of iron powder, compared to one litre of gas.


No figures given, but this implies you would need less than 8 times the weight, and certainly a lot less than the same volume.
Most new cars now are pretty fuel efficient, I have an SUV that can do over 1000km on 60l, I wouldn't mind a 25l tank that can take me over 500km, even if it weighs 200kg it would just be like having 3 passengers, and a much lower centre of gravity.
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Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#13  Postby Manticore » Apr 18, 2017 1:16 pm

How about a video?


Made from various junk. The displacer is floral arrangement foam, and the displacer chamber is a coleman lantern globe. The bearings are from dead hard drives. The flywheel is a masonry blade for a circular saw. The hot/cold end plates are pieces of one of those rapid thawing boards (just aluminum).


Thanks. Nice piece of work.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#14  Postby Macdoc » Apr 18, 2017 8:50 pm

Stupid idea.
Iron may have the energy content of hydrocarbons, but is 8 times the density.
For the same amount of energy as a 50l tank you'd need 400kg iron.
Worse is that once you burn it, you still have to carry it as spent fuel for recycling. It will weigh even more - 550kg.


added weight is not necessarily a penalty issue as it carries additional kinetic energy as long as it does not impact drag and rolling resistance it can be a plus.

In stop and go traffic weight is an issue unless there is regenerative capture. That's why a hybrid would work well and speaking of 400 kg ...isn't that what a EV battery weighs?

In addition one assumes an iron fill up implies the iron oxide gets dumped.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#15  Postby juju7 » Apr 21, 2017 11:09 am

Macdoc wrote:
Stupid idea.
Iron may have the energy content of hydrocarbons, but is 8 times the density.
For the same amount of energy as a 50l tank you'd need 400kg iron.
Worse is that once you burn it, you still have to carry it as spent fuel for recycling. It will weigh even more - 550kg.


added weight is not necessarily a penalty issue as it carries additional kinetic energy as long as it does not impact drag and rolling resistance it can be a plus.


It certainly is as you need more energy to get it up to speed.
In stop and go traffic weight is an issue unless there is regenerative capture. That's why a hybrid would work well and speaking of 400 kg ...isn't that what a EV battery weighs?

So you're suggesting to get over the weight problem, you add more weight?

In addition one assumes an iron fill up implies the iron oxide gets dumped.

Not environmentally friendly to dump all this iron oxide on the roadside, is it?
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#16  Postby zulumoose » Apr 21, 2017 11:20 am

Macdoc wrote:
Stupid idea.
Iron may have the energy content of hydrocarbons, but is 8 times the density.
For the same amount of energy as a 50l tank you'd need 400kg iron.
Worse is that once you burn it, you still have to carry it as spent fuel for recycling. It will weigh even more - 550kg.


added weight is not necessarily a penalty issue as it carries additional kinetic energy as long as it does not impact drag and rolling resistance it can be a plus.

In stop and go traffic weight is an issue unless there is regenerative capture. That's why a hybrid would work well and speaking of 400 kg ...isn't that what a EV battery weighs?

In addition one assumes an iron fill up implies the iron oxide gets dumped.


Added weight is always a negative overall, unless you aren't braking or you are so light that wind is a major drawback. All kinetic energy that has built up is wasted on braking, and regenerative braking adds lots of weight because you also have to add a drive system to use it and a percentage is still lost.

Any time you are tempted to think that added weight is not a drawback, think bicycle. Think how much you would object to being given a loaded backpack for your next bicycle trip.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#17  Postby juju7 » Apr 22, 2017 8:24 am

:this:
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#18  Postby Calilasseia » Aug 06, 2017 3:27 pm

Meanwhile, if you're looking for a way for metal to be used as a source of energy, try this ...

Courtesy of New Scientist ...

The accidental discovery of a novel aluminium alloy that reacts with water in a highly unusual way may be the first step to reviving the struggling hydrogen economy. It could offer a convenient and portable source of hydrogen for fuel cells and other applications, potentially transforming the energy market and providing an alternative to batteries and liquid fuels.

“The important aspect of the approach is that it lets you make very compact systems,” says Anthony Kucernak, who studies fuel cells at Imperial College London and wasn’t involved with the research. “That would be very useful for systems which need to be very light or operate for long periods on hydrogen, where the use of hydrogen stored in a cylinder is prohibitive.”

The discovery came in January, when researchers at the US Army Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, were working on a new, high-strength alloy, says physicist Anit Giri. When they poured water on it during routine testing, it started bubbling as it gave off hydrogen.

That doesn’t normally happen to aluminium. Usually, when exposed to water, it quickly oxidises, forming a protective barrier that puts a stop to any further reaction. But this alloy just kept reacting. The team had stumbled across the solution to a decades-old problem.

Hydrogen has long been touted as a clean, green fuel, but it is difficult to store and move around because of its bulk. “The problem with hydrogen is always transportation and pressurisation,” says Giri.
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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#19  Postby The_Metatron » Aug 06, 2017 4:48 pm

LN2, baby. That's the way to store energy. Make LN2, then use it to run a sterling engine. Not very efficient, but high energy density, extremely safe, and environmentally friendly.


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Re: Endless fuel and a closed cycle

#20  Postby juju7 » Aug 07, 2017 12:17 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Meanwhile, if you're looking for a way for metal to be used as a source of energy, try this ...

Courtesy of New Scientist ...

The accidental discovery of a novel aluminium alloy that reacts with water in a highly unusual way may be the first step to reviving the struggling hydrogen economy. It could offer a convenient and portable source of hydrogen for fuel cells and other applications, potentially transforming the energy market and providing an alternative to batteries and liquid fuels.

“The important aspect of the approach is that it lets you make very compact systems,” says Anthony Kucernak, who studies fuel cells at Imperial College London and wasn’t involved with the research. “That would be very useful for systems which need to be very light or operate for long periods on hydrogen, where the use of hydrogen stored in a cylinder is prohibitive.”

The discovery came in January, when researchers at the US Army Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, were working on a new, high-strength alloy, says physicist Anit Giri. When they poured water on it during routine testing, it started bubbling as it gave off hydrogen.

That doesn’t normally happen to aluminium. Usually, when exposed to water, it quickly oxidises, forming a protective barrier that puts a stop to any further reaction. But this alloy just kept reacting. The team had stumbled across the solution to a decades-old problem.

Hydrogen has long been touted as a clean, green fuel, but it is difficult to store and move around because of its bulk. “The problem with hydrogen is always transportation and pressurisation,” says Giri.


Not new. It has been known for decades that an amalgam of aluminium/mercury will react with water to make hydrogen. You need only a trace of mercury, which is why mercury is banned on aircraft.

Pity they didn't do their literature search.
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