A universe from nothing

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Re: A universe from nothing

#101  Postby Adco » Apr 29, 2019 9:08 am

I spotted this resurrected thread, read through some of it and want to try make a comment or two. Hopefully OT.

Why did there have to be a starting point? Could the "Big Bang" not have been a part of the flow of events that happens to occur along the timeline of universes popping out of nowhere by a mechanism that just is? No god reason, no mystery, just because that's the way these things work. This could be happening all the time and we wouldn't even know about it. Accept it.

The only reason some people want to credit god with the creation is their fears of the unknown. Human nature and nothing else. Going to take a while before that goes away. At least most of us here disregard that archaic way of thinking.

My answer to religious people is "how and why would a god even want to create such a huge universe with such diverse physics, with the ultimate aim of having a planet Earth, just so that people can worship him?". And, after all of that, he fucks off never to show his face again. Two thousand years and still waiting.
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Re: Can something come from nothing?

#102  Postby The_Piper » Apr 29, 2019 1:03 pm

Fallible wrote:
The_Piper wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Yeah, but where did the 1 come from? Canada?

Could be, there's a lot of nothing in Canada. :lol:


:coffee:

Oh, I meant to say Arctic Canada. I forgot to put that word in, that's all. :teef:
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Re: A universe from nothing

#103  Postby Fallible » Apr 29, 2019 1:34 pm

Ya little tyke, ya!
Sorry that you think you had it rough in the first world.
You ought to get out a map sooner than later.
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Get out of your head and spend less time alone.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#104  Postby felltoearth » Apr 29, 2019 1:55 pm

The Inuit would disagree. Desolate yes, empty definitely not.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#105  Postby The_Piper » Apr 29, 2019 2:33 pm

Fallible wrote:Ya little tyke, ya!

I was channeling Donald Trump's Helsinki correction. :dopey:
felltoearth wrote:The Inuit would disagree. Desolate yes, empty definitely not.
I highly agree, I was just making a one liner reply. They even have ground squirrels. :mrgreen:
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Re: Can something come from nothing?

#106  Postby newolder » Apr 29, 2019 3:16 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Are there any examples of something arising from nothing?

As this is a topic resurrection and you are on a (t)roll, I'll answer this way:

You bring me a nothing and I'll place my leavened dough 1 metre from nothing.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#107  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 29, 2019 3:22 pm

Adco wrote:I spotted this resurrected thread, read through some of it and want to try make a comment or two. Hopefully OT.

Why did there have to be a starting point? Could the "Big Bang" not have been a part of the flow of events that happens to occur along the timeline of universes popping out of nowhere by a mechanism that just is? No god reason, no mystery, just because that's the way these things work. This could be happening all the time and we wouldn't even know about it. Accept it.

The only reason some people want to credit god with the creation is their fears of the unknown. Human nature and nothing else. Going to take a while before that goes away. At least most of us here disregard that archaic way of thinking.

My answer to religious people is "how and why would a god even want to create such a huge universe with such diverse physics, with the ultimate aim of having a planet Earth, just so that people can worship him?". And, after all of that, he fucks off never to show his face again. Two thousand years and still waiting.


Would you say that this is a self existent universe that has no origin, and that instead it's an infinite regression of events, one giving rise, or as it were, creating, the next?
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Re: A universe from nothing

#108  Postby newolder » Apr 29, 2019 3:34 pm

^That would be a progression of events - a regression goes backwards in time. "In her imagination, she regressed to earlier days."

And an individual event may have a distribution of outcomes weighted by probability - see the results of collisions at the LHC, for example.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#109  Postby Rumraket » Apr 29, 2019 3:50 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Would you say that this is a self existent universe that has no origin, and that instead it's an infinite regression of events, one giving rise, or as it were, creating, the next?

I would say that we don't know, and lots of options are on the table.

I will say that speaking of there being a "before" the first moment of time is logically incoherent. Whatever the case, it does not make sense to speak of there being first nothing at all, and then later a universe. Because such a transition implies a transition in time, but if there was already time then there was not "nothing at all". Perhaps it is impossible for the state of affairs to be that kind of nothingness. Perhaps the universe has always existed, not to say in the sense that it is infinitely old, but merely that it has been in existence for all of time. As such there might never have been a transition from "nothingness" to "something", and since such a transition did not take place no cause is required to facilitate it, rather something always just was even if the amount of time is finite in the past.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#110  Postby The_Piper » Apr 29, 2019 3:51 pm

Did god create itself?
No matter what one thinks, they'll arrive at a 'what happened before that' scenario. Or a lord works in mysterious ways and our brains can't comprehend it. Either a cop out, or a question mark, is the best any person can do.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#111  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 29, 2019 3:59 pm

The_Piper wrote:Did god create itself?


I don't think it makes sense to think that anything can create or give rise to itself, nor do I think that the universe's origins can be explained by going back infinitely through a series of events, ie a big bang preceded by another, and another.

Which of course doesn't leave many options left.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#112  Postby Svartalf » Apr 29, 2019 4:13 pm

Well given that the thesis that god created the universe leaves major breaches of sense when you start wondering where god might have come from...
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Re: A universe from nothing

#113  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 29, 2019 4:15 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Which of course doesn't leave many options left.


You haven't eliminated any options.

You can always just make up a story. How are we the wiser for the old answer 'goddidit'?
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Apr 29, 2019 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#114  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 29, 2019 4:17 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
The_Piper wrote:Did god create itself?


I don't think it makes sense to think that anything can create or give rise to itself,...


And the universe is obliged to operate in a way that makes sense to you?


Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:... nor do I think that the universe's origins can be explained by going back infinitely through a series of events, ie a big bang preceded by another, and another.


On what do you base that? Mathematical modeling? Have you run simulations? What empirical components are you basing this conjecture on?


Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:Which of course doesn't leave many options left.


It leaves exactly as many as before.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#115  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 29, 2019 4:21 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Which of course doesn't leave many options left.


You haven't eliminated any opitions.

You can always just make up a story. How are we the wiser for the old answer 'goddidit'?


What's your explanation of the origin of the universe? You too, spearthrower.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#116  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 29, 2019 4:24 pm

So you think it's more... what? logical?... that a being existed outside of time and space, then simply willed the universe into existence?

That contains no logic, no evidence, no sense really - it's just an inherited and probably uninspected belief. It's basically just laziness. You don't know HOW it happened, you just believe that it did.

Whatever the case though, it still means that you necessarily believe that the universe represents something that came from nothing.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#117  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 29, 2019 4:25 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
What's your explanation of the origin of the universe? You too, spearthrower.


No idea. Do I need to have an explanation of the origin of the universe?

How about you address what I already posted? That'd be wonderful, thanks! :)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/physi ... l#p2693297
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Re: A universe from nothing

#118  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 29, 2019 4:26 pm

Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Which of course doesn't leave many options left.


You haven't eliminated any opitions.

You can always just make up a story. How are we the wiser for the old answer 'goddidit'?


What's your explanation of the origin of the universe? You too, spearthrower.


What is it you want, PK? Do you really want to put the question to rest, right now? What should an explanation accomplish? If you can't predict anything with it, what else is it good for? Politics?
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: A universe from nothing

#119  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 29, 2019 4:27 pm

Here's someone whose idea on the origin of the universe might be worth considering:

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-origin-of ... verse.html
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Re: A universe from nothing

#120  Postby Pridefel Knowitelz » Apr 29, 2019 4:30 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Pridefel Knowitelz wrote:
Which of course doesn't leave many options left.


You haven't eliminated any opitions.

You can always just make up a story. How are we the wiser for the old answer 'goddidit'?


What's your explanation of the origin of the universe? You too, spearthrower.


What is it you want, PK? Do you really want to put the question to rest, right now? What should an explanation accomplish? If you can't predict anything with it, what else is it good for? Politics?


Sorry I just thought you had some idea.

Oh look, spearthrower just posted another link that He wants me to read. You know, one of these days I might just go ahead, seeing as He Himself has no arguments or coherent explanations for His positions, just childish insults hurled at people who don't agree with Him.
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