"Cold Fusion"

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Re: Cold Fusion "closer to mainstream acceptance"

#41  Postby trevp » Apr 21, 2010 9:01 pm

atrasicarius wrote:
rJD wrote:
Pyrion wrote:Why are so many people eager to make fun of those non-mainstream-scientists?

Probably something to do with the slack and dishonest (and unscientific) behaviour of Pons & Fleischmann since their announcement in 1986 that they'd "discovered" cold fusion, along with the vast amounts of money and publicity they've garnered for it, without any results whatsoever to show for all the hype and moolah.

Wiki article

Let them research, maybe something profound will be found. Maybe it's all just bogus, maybe it's not.

The research takes money - every dollar, pound and euro spent on cold fusion is money that could be spent elsewhere. It may be possible but until we have good evidence that it is, pouring money into it in the hope that it's not just a pipe dream seems a ridiculous diversion of resources.


We have good evidence that something is going on there. We arent sure if it's actually fusion at all, or if it will be possible to produce energy from it, but I'd say the very fact that there's an unexplained phenomena here warrants further investigation. We'd probably understand what's going on by now if F&P hadnt jumped the gun and announced "LOL FREE ENERGY FOR EVERYONE!" Instead, since the initial promises turned out to be bullshit, no one wants to investigate it anymore.


You're right. I remember reading some of the original papers by Pons and Fleischmann and I seem to recall that other workers at the time managed to reproduce some of the events that led to the periodic generation of excess heat. However, I don't think that anyone managed to reliably detect any neutron formation. My (completely unsubstantiated) view is that there's no nuclear reaction here - just some good old-fashioned chemistry. Forcing hydrogen (or deuterium if you electrolyse heavy water) continuously into a palladium electrode for long enough is likely to lead to formation of hydrides (or deuterides). It's possible that decomposition of these could generate the heat that was detected.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#42  Postby tnjrp » Jan 21, 2011 11:26 am

Meanwhile in Italy, a cold fusion type of reactor thingy is almost ready to go into production:
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360

Hmm... :think:
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#43  Postby jaydot » Jan 21, 2011 11:39 am

colour me deeply sceptical. it would be wonderful if true.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#44  Postby tnjrp » Jan 21, 2011 12:37 pm

Indeed one notes that Rossi and Focardi don't seem to have a proper theory as to why their arrangement works and also (according to Physorg.com) their paper on the subject "has been rejected by peer-reviewed journals".
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#45  Postby Sovereign » Jan 21, 2011 5:08 pm

tnjrp wrote:Indeed one notes that Rossi and Focardi don't seem to have a proper theory as to why their arrangement works and also (according to Physorg.com) their paper on the subject "has been rejected by peer-reviewed journals".


Yeah but on the same hand several credible physicists were at their demonstration and did report that the device operated as claimed and produced electricity. One thing they should have done was to open up the device and make sure that there wasn't another electrical storage device inside designed to run for the allotted demonstration time. I'm not sure how far the inspection went. James Randi and Project Alpha are popping into my head right now.

Here's the press conference. There are no subtitles so if anyone who speak Italian can give us and overview, it would be greatly appreciated.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-0WvK2b7dU[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Ru1eAymvE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmHZrhTQhUc[/youtube]
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#46  Postby tnjrp » Jan 26, 2011 9:43 am

Sovereign wrote:Yeah but on the same hand several credible physicists were at their demonstration and did report that the device operated as claimed and produced electricity. One thing they should have done was to open up the device and make sure that there wasn't another electrical storage device inside designed to run for the allotted demonstration time. I'm not sure how far the inspection went
One might suspect that not very far at all. I also doubt if a physicist can tell much about how a device operates just by looking at it working.

As a bit of an aside, here's Rossi's patent application for the device, to those who might feel curious:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/ ... Report.pdf
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#47  Postby twistor59 » Jan 26, 2011 10:19 am

tnjrp wrote:
Sovereign wrote:Yeah but on the same hand several credible physicists were at their demonstration and did report that the device operated as claimed and produced electricity. One thing they should have done was to open up the device and make sure that there wasn't another electrical storage device inside designed to run for the allotted demonstration time. I'm not sure how far the inspection went
One might suspect that not very far at all. I also doubt if a physicist can tell much about how a device operates just by looking at it working.

As a bit of an aside, here's Rossi's patent application for the device, to those who might feel curious:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/ ... Report.pdf


That's basically a rejection isn't it ?

They reject the disclosure on the grounds of lack of clarity. And they reject a bunch of the claims (including claim 1) on the grounds of lack of novelty.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#48  Postby tnjrp » Jan 26, 2011 1:00 pm

:think: I suppose it is at that, I must say I just gave it a quick once over before posting as I can't really appreciate the "fine print" of legal type documents anyway...
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#49  Postby Tyrannical » Jun 06, 2011 4:21 pm

This is that nickel hydrogen fusion generator, they claim they will start making them commercially in October / November of this year. If it is fake, they've done a good job of fooling people so far.

And I thought a two inch cube seemed small for a fusion reactor :roll:

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece

In a detailed report, two Swedish physicists exclude chemical reactions as the energy source in the Italian ‘energy catalyzer’. The two physicists recently supervised a new test of the device in Bologna, Italy.

The reactor itself, which is loaded with the nickel powder and secret catalysts pressurized with hydrogen, has an estimated volume of 50 cubic centimeters (3.2 cubic inches). The reactor is made of stainless steel.

A copper tube surrounds the steel reactor. The water to be heated flows between the steel and the copper. In operation, the construction is also surrounded by insulation and a lead shielding with a thickness of approximately two centimeters (0.8 inches).

Before starting, Kullander and Essén calibrated the water flow and estimated it at 6.5 kg per hour. The power required to heat the flowing water from 18 degrees and convert it completely into steam was calculated to 4.7 kW.

They also filled the reactor with hydrogen at a pressure of about 25 bars. The reactor was according to Rossi loaded with 50 grams of nickel powder.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#50  Postby twistor59 » Jun 06, 2011 6:14 pm

Tyrannical wrote:

And I thought a two inch cube seemed small for a fusion reactor :roll:




Not if it's dilithium crystal-powered. :lol:

It'll be interesting to what happens to this.....
It seems remarkably easy to get funding for this sort of thing. like this lot.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#51  Postby atrasicarius » Jun 06, 2011 7:34 pm

If the word "secret" appears in your scientific paper, you're doing it wrong.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#52  Postby twistor59 » Jun 06, 2011 7:52 pm

atrasicarius wrote:If the word "secret" appears in your scientific paper, you're doing it wrong.


I have a revolutionary new fundamental model which reproduces general relativity and the standard model in the low energy limit, solves the black hole information paradox and vacuum energy catastrophe and explains the origin of the universe and the arrow of time. But it's a secret, so I'm not telling you :shifty:
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#53  Postby Berthold » Jun 06, 2011 8:08 pm

Secrecy is sometimes necessary when the financial gains from an invention are important.

See some discussion of the Bologna project here.

I was mistaken in that thread, but, well, my physics is a bit rudimentary.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#54  Postby atrasicarius » Jun 06, 2011 8:37 pm

Berthold wrote:Secrecy is sometimes necessary when the financial gains from an invention are important.

See some discussion of the Bologna project here.

I was mistaken in that thread, but, well, my physics is a bit rudimentary.


Excuse me, but the financial gains from an invention are never important compared to the science itself, not to mention solving the world energy crisis. Anyway, we do have this thing called "patents."
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#55  Postby tnjrp » Jun 07, 2011 5:46 am

Well, I can't really condone keeping science secret either, but in this case, assuming for the moment that the device actually delivers, I sorta can understand it. As long as they aren't at the same time vocally complaining about how greedy the "old" energy industry is :shifty:
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#56  Postby Tyrannical » Jun 07, 2011 1:00 pm

They have to keep the details secret because Patent offices for obvious reasons do not allow patents on miracle infinite energy boxes until the theory behind it is accepted by mainstream science.
That's why they are building a water heating plant out of 1,000 of the 50 centimeter ones in October, If it works, that will be enough evidence to get their patent. So we'll know for sure by the end of the year.

Too good to be true I know. The reactors can be made tiny, and the reactors can't get much hotter than 600C. Dirt cheap too.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#57  Postby kathreeds » Jun 21, 2011 5:47 pm

Cold fusion has been a holy grail of physics for decades. If it could be achieved, it would be a cheap, clean, and limitless energy source.
Yet some highly qualified researchers disagree.

George Miley, who received the Edward Teller medal for innovative research in hot fusion and has edited Fusion Technology magazine for the American Nuclear Society for more than 15 years: "There's very strong evidence that low-energy nuclear reactions do occur. Numerous experiments have shown definitive results - as do my own"
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#58  Postby rainbow » Jun 22, 2011 1:21 pm

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-ita ... video.html

The claim

Rossi and Focardi say that, when the atomic nuclei of nickel and hydrogen are fused in their reactor, the reaction produces copper and a large amount of energy. The reactor uses less than 1 gram of hydrogen and starts with about 1,000 W of electricity, which is reduced to 400 W after a few minutes. Every minute, the reaction can convert 292 grams of 20°C water into dry steam at about 101°C. Since raising the temperature of water by 80°C and converting it to steam requires about 12,400 W of power, the experiment provides a power gain of 12,400/400 = 31. As for costs, the scientists estimate that electricity can be generated at a cost of less than 1 cent/kWh, which is significantly less than coal or natural gas plants.

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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#59  Postby Sovereign » Jun 22, 2011 3:56 pm

rainbow wrote:http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-italian-scientists-cold-fusion-video.html

The claim

Rossi and Focardi say that, when the atomic nuclei of nickel and hydrogen are fused in their reactor, the reaction produces copper and a large amount of energy. The reactor uses less than 1 gram of hydrogen and starts with about 1,000 W of electricity, which is reduced to 400 W after a few minutes. Every minute, the reaction can convert 292 grams of 20°C water into dry steam at about 101°C. Since raising the temperature of water by 80°C and converting it to steam requires about 12,400 W of power, the experiment provides a power gain of 12,400/400 = 31. As for costs, the scientists estimate that electricity can be generated at a cost of less than 1 cent/kWh, which is significantly less than coal or natural gas plants.




I was supposed to be demoed 3 months after that article and it's turned into vaporware. If it had actually worked, you would have heard quite a bit by now as several companies were claimed to have licensed the technology for energy production purposes.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#60  Postby rainbow » Jun 23, 2011 7:29 am

They claim to be building a full scale plant that will be operational this year.

Question is if they are fake, what do they hope to gain by this?
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