Map and Territory, what's the difference?

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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#21  Postby Thommo » Apr 09, 2017 11:07 am

Corkey wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:"The map is not the territory." - Alfred Korzybski It's a gateway if you choose to use it.

A printed map of the Earth manifests in the arrangement of multicolored inks on a piece of paper, but the map is not ink and paper. A digital map manifests in the arrangements of contrasting pixels on a computer screen, but the map is not the pixels or the screen. "The map is not the territory," it's not a metaphor. Simply put, the software is not the hardware.


I don't think I agree with this, and I'm fairly sure it's not what the quote means.

A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper (or patterns of pixels depending on the specific map).


A map printed on a piece of paper manifests in the arrangements of the inks. The map is not matter, paper, ink, and computer hardware are.


This seems intractable. My whole point was that I don't accept your leap there. There's no connection between the premise that there's a need for arranging the paper and inks correctly to create the map and the conclusion that the map is not the paper and ink (when so arranged).

You haven't eliminated, or even considered the possibility, you've assumed it away and I don't think I agree with that.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#22  Postby Corkey » Apr 09, 2017 3:33 pm

mindhack wrote:A territory is mapped for a certain purpose. That's about it.

A map is a specified, simplified, version of a given terrain. A model, to map out a specific purpose for its users , in a given terrain.

In psychology, you are the map, not the territory. However, you is still you, the physical you.


Software is not hardware, software is not hardware, software is not hardware. The message is carried by the medium but is not the medium. The medium is not your thought.

Message and medium is a map and territory. Write a message in sand. Is your message sand? Is your body the message? Is the motion of your body while writing the message the message? No, no and no, only a medium for conveyance. The message is interpreted through the ridges and valleys you made in the sand. It's in the sand, but it's not the sand. Our thoughts are not tangible except through the medium used to express them. Think about that for a minute. “… not tangible except through the medium used to express them.” We don't normally think about our body as being the medium, but it is. We project our thoughts with our hands, a look, a shrug or when we speak, all the time.

Paper and ink are not your thoughts. Words themselves are a mean. Your thoughts manifest through the squiggly lines.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#23  Postby newolder » Apr 09, 2017 3:48 pm

Maps of hydrogen:
Image
Are the maps hydrogen? (Ans. No.)

A map is not the territory. :nod:
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#24  Postby Thommo » Apr 09, 2017 3:50 pm

An instantiation of the message is the arrangement of the sand (i.e. it "is" the sand). We can talk about an abstraction of "the message" beyond instantiations of the message, but what the more ontologically cautious among us won't do is reify it. There's no Platonic "message" beyond its instantiations - or if there is we haven't found any use for it, or evidence of it, just yet.

If I have a copy of an Oxford university press world atlas and so do you, and we both turn to page 12 and see a map of the world then there are two ways of describing what we see:-

1) We are both looking at the same map. This map therefore must be something beyond paper and ink because I'm looking at different ink and different paper to you.
2) We are both looking at maps which are the same. In this case there's every reason to suppose that each of us is looking at a map which is just ink and paper and nothing more. The things that the maps have in common (the way they reflect light) allow us to derive the same (i.e. exactly similar) information from the maps.

The point here is that (1) is not the only way of looking at things. In every day speech we can talk loosely in this way very happily. But we don't have to take it literally, or even seriously when someone talks about it in more depth.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#25  Postby Corkey » Apr 09, 2017 4:19 pm

Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:"The map is not the territory." - Alfred Korzybski It's a gateway if you choose to use it.

A printed map of the Earth manifests in the arrangement of multicolored inks on a piece of paper, but the map is not ink and paper. A digital map manifests in the arrangements of contrasting pixels on a computer screen, but the map is not the pixels or the screen. "The map is not the territory," it's not a metaphor. Simply put, the software is not the hardware.


I don't think I agree with this, and I'm fairly sure it's not what the quote means.

A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper (or patterns of pixels depending on the specific map).


A map printed on a piece of paper manifests in the arrangements of the inks. The map is not matter, paper, ink, and computer hardware are.


This seems intractable. My whole point was that I don't accept your leap there. There's no connection between the premise that there's a need for arranging the paper and inks correctly to create the map and the conclusion that the map is not the paper and ink (when so arranged).

You haven't eliminated, or even considered the possibility, you've assumed it away and I don't think I agree with that.


Software is not hardware, words are not thoughts. The message is not the medium, only carried by it.

You guys do know that each and every word spoken and written was invented by Mankind don't you? If I wrote to you in a language you don't understand, you wouldn't receive the message. You could see the territory, ink and paper (matter), but the message is not ink and paper, its our intangible thoughts that we convey through language. Intangible because they require a medium to manifest. We don't normally think about our body as being the medium, but it is. We project our thoughts with our hands, a look, a shrug, when we write or when we speak, all the time.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#26  Postby Thommo » Apr 09, 2017 4:21 pm

Corkey wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:
Thommo wrote:

I don't think I agree with this, and I'm fairly sure it's not what the quote means.

A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper (or patterns of pixels depending on the specific map).


A map printed on a piece of paper manifests in the arrangements of the inks. The map is not matter, paper, ink, and computer hardware are.


This seems intractable. My whole point was that I don't accept your leap there. There's no connection between the premise that there's a need for arranging the paper and inks correctly to create the map and the conclusion that the map is not the paper and ink (when so arranged).

You haven't eliminated, or even considered the possibility, you've assumed it away and I don't think I agree with that.


Software is not hardware, words are not thoughts. The message is not the medium, only carried by it.


Yes indeed. But would you like to reply to what was written?
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#27  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Ok, great, so what? What is the point of this word game? Because that's really all you're doing here. What is the point of defining something that arises from physical processes as non-physical? Why is running transcendent? After all, my body is not the running, the running is something that manifests from a time-based formation of my body :tinfoil:
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#28  Postby Corkey » Apr 10, 2017 4:54 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Corkey wrote:One hand can't clap.


Perhaps, but clapping isn't particularly material on your model either, so who's going to give a fuck? One arm can wave, though, and that's called 'arm waving'.

Two hands can't even clap until one of them begins to move. One hand can move all it wants, but it can't clap.

[mechanics, n. pl. [construed as sing.] The branch of Physics that deals with motion and the phenomena of the action of forces on bodies]
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#29  Postby Corkey » Apr 10, 2017 5:00 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:Ok, great, so what? What is the point of this word game? Because that's really all you're doing here. What is the point of defining something that arises from physical processes as non-physical? Why is running transcendent? After all, my body is not the running, the running is something that manifests from a time-based formation of my body :tinfoil:


Only when words have no relative meaning is it a game. How long would you look in a dictionary for a word that wasn't defined by and through other words in it? One word or thought clap either.

Two hands can't clap until one of them begins to move. One hand can move all it wants, but it can't clap.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#30  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 10, 2017 5:52 pm

Corkey wrote:One hand can move all it wants, but it can't clap.


Is that relevant? That's not what the Zen koan is about.

An F-15 can go Mach 1 within earshot. Where's the other hand? I think you're bluffing; there aren't any cards in your hand.

Why does anyone say, "the map is not the territory" except to try to sound mysterious, as if one held a secret of great import. But you're bluffing. Obviously.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#31  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 10, 2017 8:21 pm

Corkey wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Ok, great, so what? What is the point of this word game? Because that's really all you're doing here. What is the point of defining something that arises from physical processes as non-physical? Why is running transcendent? After all, my body is not the running, the running is something that manifests from a time-based formation of my body :tinfoil:


Only when words have no relative meaning is it a game. How long would you look in a dictionary for a word that wasn't defined by and through other words in it? One word or thought clap either.

Great, then maybe you can provide a meaningful definition of non-physical. Not holding my breath, though.

Two hands can't clap until one of them begins to move. One hand can move all it wants, but it can't clap.

Yes it can, clap your fingers against your palm. What you mean is you can't clap two hands together with only one hand, which is about as trivial a statement as any other you've made in this thread. Again, what's the point you're trying to get at? Because surely defining something that arises from physical processes as non-physical can't be it. By itself, it's completely pointless definition jockeying.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#32  Postby archibald » Apr 10, 2017 9:24 pm

If you get a really, really big, 1:1 scale map of, say, a field, and lay it out on the field, then the map is the territory.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#33  Postby archibald » Apr 10, 2017 9:29 pm

Thommo wrote:A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper.



Correct. That's 'the ink is not the map'. Different issue entirely. Arguably needs a separate thread.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#34  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 10, 2017 11:53 pm

archibald wrote:If you get a really, really big, 1:1 scale map of, say, a field, and lay it out on the field, then the map is the territory.

Well no, it's a big piece of inky paper on top of the territory :P

Let's take another example: sound waves. They propagate through a physical material, but are not the material themselves. Remove the material and they cease to exist. Not physical?
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#35  Postby archibald » Apr 11, 2017 9:40 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
archibald wrote:If you get a really, really big, 1:1 scale map of, say, a field, and lay it out on the field, then the map is the territory.

Well no, it's a big piece of inky paper on top of the territory :P


First of all, I was thinking of a map drawn using coloured pencils. Second, you may run into trouble trying to define 'territory' since it's not the grass or the soil either. :)

SafeAsMilk wrote:Let's take another example: sound waves. They propagate through a physical material, but are not the material themselves. Remove the material and they cease to exist. Not physical?


This is the more interesting question, and I think it's the one the OP is getting at.

I think it's tricky. But I'm not sure I want to get into it, having been through it with John Platko in another thread. For practical purposes, I don't think it's totally daft to think of there being information in material stuff and considering that information to be to some extent independent of the material. We arguably wouldn't be able to post stuff here without allowing that transfer of information from medium to medium.

On the other hand, maybe the medium is the information. Or vice versa. Or they are both properties of the same thing which is neither of them. There are theories that the basic component of the universe is information and that what we call matter is just a manifestation of it.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#36  Postby archibald » Apr 11, 2017 9:41 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
archibald wrote:If you get a really, really big, 1:1 scale map of, say, a field, and lay it out on the field, then the map is the territory.

Well no, it's a big piece of inky paper on top of the territory :P


First of all, I was thinking of a map drawn using coloured pencils. :tongue:

Second, you may run into trouble trying to define 'territory' since it's arguably not the grass or the soil either. The word territory is itself ultimately a bit abstract.

SafeAsMilk wrote:Let's take another example: sound waves. They propagate through a physical material, but are not the material themselves. Remove the material and they cease to exist. Not physical?


This is the more interesting question, and I think it's the one the OP is getting at.

I think it's tricky. But I'm not sure I want to get into it, having been through it with John Platko in another thread. For practical purposes, I don't think it's totally daft to think of there being information in material stuff and considering that information to be to some extent 'independent' of the material. We arguably wouldn't be able to post stuff here without allowing that transfer of (what we call) information from medium to medium.

On the other hand, maybe the medium is the information. Or vice versa. Or they are both properties of the same thing which is neither of them. There are theories that the basic component of the universe is information and that what we call matter is just a secondary (and/or simultaneous) manifestation of it. Who knows? We are stuck with models of reality. Some are more useful than others.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#37  Postby Corkey » Apr 11, 2017 4:52 pm

mindhack wrote:A territory is mapped for a certain purpose. That's about it.

A map is a specified, simplified, version of a given terrain. A model, to map out a specific purpose for its users , in a given terrain.

In psychology, you are the map, not the territory. However, you is still you, the physical you.



My body is the territory, my mind is the map. the message is carried by the medium but is not the medium Just like the map is not the territory it manifested through it but is not it. Maybe I should have posted this in the psychology forum.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#38  Postby Corkey » Apr 11, 2017 4:57 pm

Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:

A map printed on a piece of paper manifests in the arrangements of the inks. The map is not matter, paper, ink, and computer hardware are.


This seems intractable. My whole point was that I don't accept your leap there. There's no connection between the premise that there's a need for arranging the paper and inks correctly to create the map and the conclusion that the map is not the paper and ink (when so arranged).

You haven't eliminated, or even considered the possibility, you've assumed it away and I don't think I agree with that.


Software is not hardware, words are not thoughts. The message is not the medium, only carried by it.


Yes indeed. But would you like to reply to what was written?


Draw a map in the sand. Is your map the sand? Is your map your body? is your map the motion of your body while writing message? Words are nothing more than a conveyance for your thoughts they are not your thoughts.

What's the difference between software and hardware?
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#39  Postby Thommo » Apr 11, 2017 5:02 pm

Your map is the sand, including its arrangement, yes. It is not your body, it is not the motion of your hand while drawing the map.

(This is the non abstract version of the word map, it's what we refer to when someone says "pass me that map" and we hand them the map, rather than the abstraction that results from forming an identity between all copies of a map resulting from the same base survey data.)
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#40  Postby newolder » Apr 11, 2017 5:04 pm

Corkey wrote:...
What's the difference between software and hardware?

The hardware remains when the power is turned off but the instance of the software in volatile memory does not.
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