Map and Territory, what's the difference?

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Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#1  Postby Corkey » Apr 07, 2017 7:00 pm

This is my first original post, except for Hi in the new members forum. From what I've read so far, the *mechanical frame of reference I see the Universe through is different than the one that "conventional wisdom" sees through. So, I'm just firing for effect to see how far we're apart.
*mechanics, n. pl. [construed as sing.] The branch of Physics that deals with motion and the phenomena of the action of forces on bodies.

"The map is not the territory." - Alfred Korzybski It's a gateway if you choose to use it.

A printed map of the Earth manifests in the arrangement of multicolored inks on a piece of paper, but the map is not ink and paper. A digital map manifests in the arrangements of contrasting pixels on a computer screen, but the map is not the pixels or the screen. "The map is not the territory," it's not a metaphor. Simply put, the software is not the hardware.

In the same sense as map not being the territory and software not being the hardware, I've come to the conclusion the psychological is not the physical, the Counter is not the counted, the Timer is not the timed and the message is not the medium.
Write a message in sand. Is your message sand? Is your body the message? Is the motion of your body while writing the message the message? No, no and no, only a medium for conveyance. The message is interpreted through the ridges and valleys you made in the sand. It's in the sand, but it's not the sand. Our thoughts are not tangible except through the medium used to express them. Think about that for a minute. “… not tangible except through the medium used to express them.” We don't normally think about our body as being the medium, but it is. We project our thoughts with our hands, a look, a shrug or when we speak, all the time. Neither pixels, inks, paper, sound or ridges and valleys in the sand are thoughts.

Some people worship the light, others worship the dark. Neither seem to comprehend that it's only through the effect of both are they capable of worshiping either. One hand can't clap.

My Body's an anti-gravity machine and it lets me operated it whenever I want. I wish it could fly. :)
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#2  Postby NineBerry » Apr 07, 2017 7:02 pm

One hand can clap.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#3  Postby Corkey » Apr 07, 2017 7:06 pm

NineBerry wrote:One hand can clap.

Not within the realm of Human observation or mechanics.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#4  Postby tuco » Apr 07, 2017 7:09 pm

not tangible except through the medium used to express them


Its like saying, not the best analogy but a quick one, sweetness is not tangible except when contained in sweet food, which goes without saying.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#5  Postby Corkey » Apr 07, 2017 7:11 pm

tuco wrote:
not tangible except through the medium used to express them


Its like saying, not the best analogy but a quick one, sweetness is not tangible except when contained in sweet food, which goes without saying.

Not really, take motion for instance. Motion manifest through matter but is not matter. What is motion if not an intangible essence?
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#6  Postby tuco » Apr 07, 2017 7:21 pm

Motion is defined in wiki, probably something like change of coordinates over time. Or motion is just a word. Are we debating whether words are tangible or not? You admitted that some stuff is only tangible through a medium. So take away the medium. Stuff becomes intangible. And I say that it will cease to exist. So essentially, it matters not if its intangible since it only exists through tangible. Or?
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#7  Postby NineBerry » Apr 07, 2017 7:32 pm

Corkey wrote:
NineBerry wrote:One hand can clap.

Not within the realm of Human observation or mechanics.


https://youtu.be/qwoq3QBaQAY
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#8  Postby Corkey » Apr 07, 2017 8:13 pm

NineBerry wrote:
Corkey wrote:
NineBerry wrote:One hand can clap.

Not within the realm of Human observation or mechanics.


https://youtu.be/qwoq3QBaQAY


Is not motion a medium? It's surely not the message.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#9  Postby Thommo » Apr 07, 2017 8:57 pm

Corkey wrote:"The map is not the territory." - Alfred Korzybski It's a gateway if you choose to use it.

A printed map of the Earth manifests in the arrangement of multicolored inks on a piece of paper, but the map is not ink and paper. A digital map manifests in the arrangements of contrasting pixels on a computer screen, but the map is not the pixels or the screen. "The map is not the territory," it's not a metaphor. Simply put, the software is not the hardware.


I don't think I agree with this, and I'm fairly sure it's not what the quote means.

A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper (or patterns of pixels depending on the specific map).
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#10  Postby Fenrir » Apr 08, 2017 2:05 am

NineBerry wrote:
Corkey wrote:
NineBerry wrote:One hand can clap.

Not within the realm of Human observation or mechanics.


https://youtu.be/qwoq3QBaQAY

That's just very rapid fapping. Much like the OP imo.
Religion: it only fails when you test it.-Thunderf00t.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#11  Postby LucidFlight » Apr 08, 2017 2:39 am

Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:"The map is not the territory." - Alfred Korzybski It's a gateway if you choose to use it.

A printed map of the Earth manifests in the arrangement of multicolored inks on a piece of paper, but the map is not ink and paper. A digital map manifests in the arrangements of contrasting pixels on a computer screen, but the map is not the pixels or the screen. "The map is not the territory," it's not a metaphor. Simply put, the software is not the hardware.


I don't think I agree with this, and I'm fairly sure it's not what the quote means.

A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper (or patterns of pixels depending on the specific map).


We really need John Platko here to explain that the map is information... and something about constructor theory and heuristics would help too, I think.
OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#12  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 08, 2017 3:54 am

A word game, basically. What do you even mean by saying something is non-physical? If it arises from physical processes, then I don't see how you can say it isn't physical.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#13  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 08, 2017 4:48 am

Corkey wrote:One hand can't clap.


Perhaps, but clapping isn't particularly material on your model either, so who's going to give a fuck? One arm can wave, though, and that's called 'arm waving'.

Corkey wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

I think what you mean is that opinions are not definitions.


Definitions are also opinions.


That might be the case, Corkey, but it doesn't really address my point.

Corkey wrote:I've come to the conclusion the psychological is not the physical


Is that a definition or an opinion? If everything is just all the different sides of a many-dimensional coin, perhaps the best thing to do with it all is take a vow of fucking silence.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#14  Postby Corkey » Apr 08, 2017 2:24 pm

Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:"The map is not the territory." - Alfred Korzybski It's a gateway if you choose to use it.

A printed map of the Earth manifests in the arrangement of multicolored inks on a piece of paper, but the map is not ink and paper. A digital map manifests in the arrangements of contrasting pixels on a computer screen, but the map is not the pixels or the screen. "The map is not the territory," it's not a metaphor. Simply put, the software is not the hardware.


I don't think I agree with this, and I'm fairly sure it's not what the quote means.

A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper (or patterns of pixels depending on the specific map).


A map printed on a piece of paper manifests in the arrangements of the inks. The map is not matter, paper, ink, and computer hardware are.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#15  Postby Corkey » Apr 08, 2017 2:41 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Corkey wrote:One hand can't clap.


Perhaps, but clapping isn't particularly material on your model either, so who's going to give a fuck? One arm can wave, though, and that's called 'arm waving'.

Corkey wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

I think what you mean is that opinions are not definitions.


Definitions are also opinions.


That might be the case, Corkey, but it doesn't really address my point.

Corkey wrote:I've come to the conclusion the psychological is not the physical


Is that a definition or an opinion? If everything is just all the different sides of a many-dimensional coin, perhaps the best thing to do with it all is take a vow of fucking silence.


Map = message, medium = medium. As I said in my post, write a message (map) in the sand (territory). Where's the message (map)?

By the way, I thought Dimensions in Physics were fundamental quantities. I'm not taking your bait Mr Silencer.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#16  Postby Sendraks » Apr 08, 2017 2:42 pm

"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#17  Postby Corkey » Apr 08, 2017 2:50 pm

LucidFlight wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:"The map is not the territory." - Alfred Korzybski It's a gateway if you choose to use it.

A printed map of the Earth manifests in the arrangement of multicolored inks on a piece of paper, but the map is not ink and paper. A digital map manifests in the arrangements of contrasting pixels on a computer screen, but the map is not the pixels or the screen. "The map is not the territory," it's not a metaphor. Simply put, the software is not the hardware.


I don't think I agree with this, and I'm fairly sure it's not what the quote means.

A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper (or patterns of pixels depending on the specific map).


We really need John Platko here to explain that the map is information... and something about constructor theory and heuristics would help too, I think.


Here's the dichotomy the way I see it. Write a message or map in the sand (territory). Where's the message or map? It's in the sand but it's not the sand.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#18  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 08, 2017 3:22 pm

Corkey wrote:
LucidFlight wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Corkey wrote:"The map is not the territory." - Alfred Korzybski It's a gateway if you choose to use it.

A printed map of the Earth manifests in the arrangement of multicolored inks on a piece of paper, but the map is not ink and paper. A digital map manifests in the arrangements of contrasting pixels on a computer screen, but the map is not the pixels or the screen. "The map is not the territory," it's not a metaphor. Simply put, the software is not the hardware.


I don't think I agree with this, and I'm fairly sure it's not what the quote means.

A map being distinct from the territory does not mean that a map is not ink and paper (or patterns of pixels depending on the specific map).


We really need John Platko here to explain that the map is information... and something about constructor theory and heuristics would help too, I think.


Here's the dichotomy the way I see it. Write a message or map in the sand (territory). Where's the message or map? It's in the sand but it's not the sand.


It's not in the sand at all. It's instantiated in the reader and the writer, in the speaker and the listener. But again, you seem to be struggling with how opinions and definitions are not identical. That's why conventions are adopted to deal with the transmission of information. They're defined as long as anyone agrees to them, but that's the big if. When nobody agrees with your jackass opinions, you're effectively silenced, however long you stand at a street corner on a soap box shouting into a bullhorn.

Corkey wrote:Here's the dichotomy the way I see it.


Street corner. Soap box. Bullhorn.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#19  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 08, 2017 4:04 pm

The point of this is there's a map you can draw by making observations and there's one you can draw by pulling opinions out of your backside. There's a point to each one, but that's not what you mean by 'territory', unless I miss my bet, or you want to circle the drain of your non-distinction between definitions and opinions.
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Re: Map and Territory, what's the difference?

#20  Postby mindhack » Apr 08, 2017 7:40 pm

A territory is mapped for a certain purpose. That's about it.

A map is a specified, simplified, version of a given terrain. A model, to map out a specific purpose for its users , in a given terrain.

In psychology, you are the map, not the territory. However, you is still you, the physical you.
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