muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

CERN to Gran Sasso, neutrino speed greater than lightspeed. wow!

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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#241  Postby zaybu » Nov 21, 2011 8:24 pm

Pulsar wrote:

zaybu wrote:It would seem that this issue has been resolved.

No, it's just another proposal, among the countless others. It remains to be seen whether this holds any water.




But now you have two papers, the one by van Elburg, and this one by Satish Ramakrishna, that give the same explanation as to the causes of the "60ns" anomaly. It's true that the Opera team hasn't comment on them, but nevertheles, it would be hard to believe that these two different papers would be wrong.

EDIT: the Ramakrishna's paper gives a better account.
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#242  Postby twistor59 » Feb 22, 2012 7:58 pm

This would be hilarious if true:

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/02/faster-than-light-neutrino-result-apparently-a-mistake-due-to-loose-cable.ars

But now, ScienceInsider is reporting that there was a good reason the measurements and reality weren't lining up: a loose cable was causing one of the atomic clocks used to time the neutrinos' flight to produce spurious results. If the report is confirmed, then it provides a simple explanation for the fascinating-yet-difficult-to-accept results.
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#243  Postby Pulsar » Feb 22, 2012 8:10 pm

You've got to be fucking kidding me. A loose cable? :lol:
If this gets confirmed, I can't wait to see the press conference. This is going to be awkward :whistle:
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#244  Postby THWOTH » Feb 22, 2012 8:18 pm

I bet they didn't even turn if off and turn it on again. :doh:
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#246  Postby The_Metatron » Feb 22, 2012 8:31 pm

Yeah, we'll you're now reading from the guy who plugged an Austron crystal clock into the atomic clocks at radio station WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado, into a jack that was clearly labelled "one PPM", and zeroed all three atomic clocks, resulting in WWV transmitting dead carrier for about ten minutes.
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#247  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Feb 22, 2012 8:33 pm

Pulsar wrote:You've got to be fucking kidding me. A loose cable? :lol:
If this gets confirmed, I can't wait to see the press conference. This is going to be awkward :whistle:


I don't think it needs to be awkward. They have always said that there could be a systemic problem with their experiment. Science is a process.

Just like the early trajectory calculations of the asteroid a few years back that gave a high probability for an Earth impact, then someone found photographic records of the object from several months previous. They ran the calculations with the newly found data and came up with virtually 0% chance of impact. The headlines were "Astronomers goof" and "Scientists flunk at math" or some such bullshit.
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#248  Postby twistor59 » Feb 22, 2012 8:37 pm

The physics geek in me wants this explanation to be wrong because SOL variation would stir up physics no end. But the comedian in me wants it to be true.... :lol:
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#249  Postby campermon » Feb 22, 2012 8:40 pm

Lots of Lols!!!

A loose cable eh? and there's me, a lowly physics teacher, berating kids for not checking their cable connections when their circuits won't work!

:cofee:
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#250  Postby Pulsar » Feb 22, 2012 8:47 pm

twistor59 wrote:The physics geek in me wants this explanation to be wrong because SOL variation would stir up physics no end. But the comedian in me wants it to be true.... :lol:

Same here :grin:

CdesignProponentsist wrote:I don't think it needs to be awkward. They have always said that there could be a systemic problem with their experiment. Science is a process.

An instrumentation problem was always the most likely culprit, but I did expect a more sophisticated glitch ;)
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#251  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Feb 22, 2012 8:50 pm

Pulsar wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:I don't think it needs to be awkward. They have always said that there could be a systemic problem with their experiment. Science is a process.

An instrumentation problem was always the most likely culprit, but I did expect a more sophisticated glitch ;)


Well, I'm sure it is probably more sophisticated than it sounds.
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#252  Postby twistor59 » Feb 22, 2012 9:24 pm

Sean Carroll is urging caution (quite rightly):

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/02/22/neutrinos-and-cables/

I suppose it’s possible. But man, that would make the experimenters look really bad. And the sourcing in the article is just about as weak as it could be: “according to sources familiar with the experiment” is as far as it goes. (What is this, politics?)

So it’s my duty to pass it along, but I would tend to reserve judgment until a better-sourced account comes along. Not that there’s much chance that neutrinos are actually moving faster than light; that was always one of the less-likely explanations for the result. But this isn’t how we usually learn about experimental goofs.
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#253  Postby Pulsar » Feb 23, 2012 1:38 am

A more detailed update (it seems they've identified two possible problems):

http://blogs.nature.com/news/2012/02/faster-than-light-neutrino-measurement-has-two-possible-errors.html

But according to a statement OPERA began circulating today, two possible problems have now been found with its set-up. As many physicists had speculated might be the case, both are related to the experiment’s pioneering use of Global Positioning System (GPS) signals to synchronize atomic clocks at each end of its neutrino beam. First, the passage of time on the clocks between the arrival of the synchronizing signal has to be interpolated and OPERA now says this may not have been done correctly. Second, there was a possible faulty connection between the GPS signal and the OPERA master clock.

[...]

“The OPERA Collaboration, by continuing its campaign of verifications on the neutrino velocity measurement, has identified two issues that could significantly affect the reported result. The first one is linked to the oscillator used to produce the events time-stamps in between the GPS synchronizations. The second point is related to the connection of the optical fiber bringing the external GPS signal to the OPERA master clock.

These two issues can modify the neutrino time of flight in opposite directions. While continuing our investigations, in order to unambiguously quantify the effect on the observed result, the Collaboration is looking forward to performing a new measurement of the neutrino velocity as soon as a new bunched beam will be available in 2012. An extensive report on the above mentioned verifications and results will be shortly made available to the scientific committees and agencies.”
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#254  Postby iamthereforeithink » Feb 23, 2012 3:11 am

Gaaa...aah :shock:

And we're trusting these nincompoops to come up with the next big breakthroughs in the field of physics? I'm going to sue these guys on two counts -

1. Monetary loss on account of many hours wasted in the cafeteria discussing possible theoretical explanations. Time which, if spent productively, might have earned me upwards of $100k
2. Defamation, on account of looking like an idiot when I go to the cafeteria tomorrow.
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#255  Postby twistor59 » Feb 23, 2012 7:18 am

iamthereforeithink wrote:Gaaa...aah :shock:

And we're trusting these nincompoops to come up with the next big breakthroughs in the field of physics? I'm going to sue these guys on two counts -

1. Monetary loss on account of many hours wasted in the cafeteria discussing possible theoretical explanations. Time which, if spent productively, might have earned me upwards of $100k
2. Defamation, on account of looking like an idiot when I go to the cafeteria tomorrow.


Yo' iam - haven't seen you in a while :cheers:
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#257  Postby twistor59 » Feb 23, 2012 9:24 am

Darkchilde wrote:It's official, just got the CERN Press Release here: http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2011/PR19.11E.html


In the quote
The second concerns the optical fibre connector that brings the external GPS signal to the OPERA master clock, which may not have been functioning correctly when the measurements were taken.


does the bold part mean "not screwed in correctly" ?
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#258  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 23, 2012 9:41 am

twistor59 wrote:does the bold part mean "not screwed in correctly" ?


Something like that, I'm sure. Ever since this "supra-luminal" neutrino result was published, I've been waiting for the real reason for the result to be discovered, and this poor contact in the electronics looks to be a likely culprit.
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#259  Postby hackenslash » Feb 23, 2012 11:16 am

:rofl:
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Re: muon neutrinos travel faster than c?

#260  Postby THWOTH » Feb 23, 2012 11:43 am

Sean Carroll wrote:.... “according to sources familiar with the experiment” is as far as it goes. (What is this, politics?)

Well said. :coffee:
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