Photons and other force carriers

Yet another weird thought of mine...

Study matter and its motion through spacetime...

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Photons and other force carriers

#1  Postby LjSpike » Mar 08, 2017 5:00 pm

Photons, Z bosons and so on are a subatomic particles. Yet I've never heard of such thing as an antiphoton or anti-Z Boson, additionally when a beam of light is cast, it appears when considered to be a stream of particles to have photons but not antiphotons.

Wouldn't this conclude that at least some particles can be made through means aside from pair production, and thus potentially any particle could be made without an antiparticle being made, therefore explaining the lack of balance between matter and antimatter in the universe?
LjSpike
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 89
Age: 19
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Photons and other force carriers

#2  Postby newolder » Mar 08, 2017 5:28 pm

It’s frequently asked question with essentially the same answer at many sites. The photon and Z boson are their own antiparticle.

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1153

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... tons-exist

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/com ... iparticle/

to list 3.
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 6477
Age: 8
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: Photons and other force carriers

#3  Postby crank » Mar 08, 2017 7:11 pm

That's why they move so fast, they're always trying to get away from themselves.
“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”
-George Carlin, who died 2008. Ha, now we have human centipedes running the place
User avatar
crank
RS Donator
 
Name: Sick & Tired
Posts: 10362
Age: 4
Male

Country: 2nd miasma on the left
Pitcairn (pn)
Print view this post

Re: Photons and other force carriers

#4  Postby LjSpike » Mar 09, 2017 4:06 pm

crank wrote:That's why they move so fast, they're always trying to get away from themselves.

So a single photon is simultaneously an antiparticle and particle? Why don't they just instantly annihilate then?
LjSpike
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 89
Age: 19
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Photons and other force carriers

#5  Postby newolder » Mar 09, 2017 4:15 pm

LjSpike wrote:
crank wrote:That's why they move so fast, they're always trying to get away from themselves.

So a single photon is simultaneously an antiparticle and particle? Why don't they just instantly annihilate then?

Photon photon scattering is discussed here: https://arxiv.org/abs/1106.0465 (recall that a PDF link is available near top right at this link.)
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 6477
Age: 8
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: Photons and other force carriers

#6  Postby twistor59 » Mar 09, 2017 8:28 pm

LjSpike wrote:
crank wrote:That's why they move so fast, they're always trying to get away from themselves.

So a single photon is simultaneously an antiparticle and particle? Why don't they just instantly annihilate then?


Coz annihilation would turn them into energy and they already are energy.

So they needn't bother...
A soul in tension that's learning to fly
Condition grounded but determined to try
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earthbound misfit, I
User avatar
twistor59
RS Donator
 
Posts: 4966
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Photons and other force carriers

#7  Postby Calilasseia » Mar 09, 2017 8:52 pm

More rigorously, the creation and annihilation operators for particles in Hilbert space are, in the most general case, complex-valued operators of the form x+iy and x-iy (they are complex conjugates of each other). So, if x+iy is the creation operator for a particle, then x-iy is the creation operator for an antiparticle. (They are also the annihilation operators for the vice-versa entities).

However, if y=0, then the creation and annihilation operators are identical (and real), and the resulting particles become their own antiparticles.

The spin-statistics theorem, which divides particles into fermions and bosons on the basis of their spin angular momentum quantum numbers, implies that bosons are particles for which y=0 above.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22011
Age: 57
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Photons and other force carriers

#8  Postby LjSpike » Mar 10, 2017 7:17 am

Calilasseia wrote:More rigorously, the creation and annihilation operators for particles in Hilbert space are, in the most general case, complex-valued operators of the form x+iy and x-iy (they are complex conjugates of each other). So, if x+iy is the creation operator for a particle, then x-iy is the creation operator for an antiparticle. (They are also the annihilation operators for the vice-versa entities).

However, if y=0, then the creation and annihilation operators are identical (and real), and the resulting particles become their own antiparticles.

The spin-statistics theorem, which divides particles into fermions and bosons on the basis of their spin angular momentum quantum numbers, implies that bosons are particles for which y=0 above.

Thats an interesting definition.


twistor59 wrote:

Coz annihilation would turn them into energy and they already are energy.

So they needn't bother...


Well all matter is energy, but come to think of it, when a light beam ends and is absorbed by a surface would that be the annihilation of a photon with itself? It disappears from existence leaving behind its equivalent energy in another form.
LjSpike
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 89
Age: 19
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Photons and other force carriers

#9  Postby Darkchilde » Mar 10, 2017 8:35 am

LjSpike wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:More rigorously, the creation and annihilation operators for particles in Hilbert space are, in the most general case, complex-valued operators of the form x+iy and x-iy (they are complex conjugates of each other). So, if x+iy is the creation operator for a particle, then x-iy is the creation operator for an antiparticle. (They are also the annihilation operators for the vice-versa entities).

However, if y=0, then the creation and annihilation operators are identical (and real), and the resulting particles become their own antiparticles.

The spin-statistics theorem, which divides particles into fermions and bosons on the basis of their spin angular momentum quantum numbers, implies that bosons are particles for which y=0 above.

Thats an interesting definition.


twistor59 wrote:

Coz annihilation would turn them into energy and they already are energy.

So they needn't bother...


Well all matter is energy, but come to think of it, when a light beam ends and is absorbed by a surface would that be the annihilation of a photon with itself? It disappears from existence leaving behind its equivalent energy in another form.


No. A photon is energy. It cannot be annihilated with itself. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only change forms. Photons interact with particles that have non-0 charge, such as electrons and excite them to a different energy level. (That is a simplification, because the photon must carry the required energy for the electron to change energy levels.)

But the main thing is that you cannot create nor destroy energy. Only change its form.
User avatar
Darkchilde
RS Donator
 
Posts: 9015
Age: 50
Female

Country: United Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Photons and other force carriers

#10  Postby LjSpike » Mar 11, 2017 10:24 am

Darkchilde wrote:
LjSpike wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:More rigorously, the creation and annihilation operators for particles in Hilbert space are, in the most general case, complex-valued operators of the form x+iy and x-iy (they are complex conjugates of each other). So, if x+iy is the creation operator for a particle, then x-iy is the creation operator for an antiparticle. (They are also the annihilation operators for the vice-versa entities).

However, if y=0, then the creation and annihilation operators are identical (and real), and the resulting particles become their own antiparticles.

The spin-statistics theorem, which divides particles into fermions and bosons on the basis of their spin angular momentum quantum numbers, implies that bosons are particles for which y=0 above.

Thats an interesting definition.


twistor59 wrote:

Coz annihilation would turn them into energy and they already are energy.

So they needn't bother...


Well all matter is energy, but come to think of it, when a light beam ends and is absorbed by a surface would that be the annihilation of a photon with itself? It disappears from existence leaving behind its equivalent energy in another form.


No. A photon is energy. It cannot be annihilated with itself. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only change forms. Photons interact with particles that have non-0 charge, such as electrons and excite them to a different energy level. (That is a simplification, because the photon must carry the required energy for the electron to change energy levels.)

But the main thing is that you cannot create nor destroy energy. Only change its form.


But annihilation doesn't destroy energy. It'd be changing the form of energy from a particle to another way it's expressed, such as in heat, or in exciting another particle (which then re-released the energy as a gamma ray later on)...
LjSpike
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 89
Age: 19
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post


Return to Physics

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest