A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all. Now God can create free creatures, but He can't cause or determine them to do only what is right. For if He does so, then they aren't significantly free after all; they do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil; and He can't give these creatures the freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent them from doing so. As it turned out, sadly enough, some of the free creatures God created went wrong in the exercise of their freedom; this is the source of moral evil. The fact that free creatures sometimes go wrong, however, counts neither against God's omnipotence nor against His goodness; for He could have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good. - Alvin Plantinga
Problem of Evil has been solved
free will problem of evil ignorance atheism theism christianity
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Problem of Evil has been solved
#1 
by AtheismIsIrrational » May 04, 2012 10:09 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw4s2UmlKmw[/youtube]
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#2 by Macdoc » May 04, 2012 10:17 pm
thought most people got past this nonsense at puberty.
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EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#3 by AtheismIsIrrational » May 04, 2012 10:19 pm
What's wrong with the free will defense?
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#4 by Animavore » May 04, 2012 10:21 pm
Oh look. Guy talks about things he can't possibly know as if he does.
And to think I heard so much about this Plantiga guy. I was led to believe he was a great theologian.
And to think I heard so much about this Plantiga guy. I was led to believe he was a great theologian.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#5 by AtheismIsIrrational » May 04, 2012 10:22 pm
Animavore wrote:Oh look. Guy talks about things he can't possibly know as if he does.
And to think I heard so much about this Plantiga guy. I was led to believe he was a great theologian.
No, please. Tell me what's wrong? I don't see any flaws with his refutation and why don't you think he's a great theologian? I'm not omniscient.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#6 by Nebogipfel » May 04, 2012 10:25 pm
How does free will account for the suffering caused by natural disasters?
If God gives us free will in the knowledge that some of us will use it to not comply with his commands, why does he punish us for doing so?
In short, why does he give us free will and then expect us to forego its use?
If God gives us free will in the knowledge that some of us will use it to not comply with his commands, why does he punish us for doing so?
In short, why does he give us free will and then expect us to forego its use?
Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion
-- Carl Sagan
-- Carl Sagan
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#7 by AtheismIsIrrational » May 04, 2012 10:26 pm
Nebogipfel wrote:How does free will account for the suffering caused by natural disasters?
If God gives us free will in the knowledge that some of us will use it to not comply with his commands, why does he punish us for doing so?
In short, why does he give us free will and then expect us to forego its use?
Natural evil is via demons and he wants to test us.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#8 by Animavore » May 04, 2012 10:28 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:Animavore wrote:Oh look. Guy talks about things he can't possibly know as if he does.
And to think I heard so much about this Plantiga guy. I was led to believe he was a great theologian.
No, please. Tell me what's wrong? I don't see any flaws with his refutation and why don't you think he's a great theologian? I'm not omniscient.
The main flaw is he has no evidence that free will exists but that to me is nothing compared to the fact that he's talking about something he can't possibly know. How foes he know what god's reason for doing anything is? How is he privy to such information? He's either lying or delusional.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#9 by Animavore » May 04, 2012 10:29 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:Nebogipfel wrote:How does free will account for the suffering caused by natural disasters?
If God gives us free will in the knowledge that some of us will use it to not comply with his commands, why does he punish us for doing so?
In short, why does he give us free will and then expect us to forego its use?
Natural evil is via demons and he wants to test us.
And how do you know this, exactly?
Tell me. Are you lying or delusional?
A most evolved electron.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#10 by Nebogipfel » May 04, 2012 10:29 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:Nebogipfel wrote:How does free will account for the suffering caused by natural disasters?
If God gives us free will in the knowledge that some of us will use it to not comply with his commands, why does he punish us for doing so?
In short, why does he give us free will and then expect us to forego its use?
Natural evil is via demons
This is a joke, right?
and he wants to test us.
Test us for what, exactly?
Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion
-- Carl Sagan
-- Carl Sagan
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#11 by Macroinvertebrate » May 04, 2012 10:31 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:Nebogipfel wrote:How does free will account for the suffering caused by natural disasters?
If God gives us free will in the knowledge that some of us will use it to not comply with his commands, why does he punish us for doing so?
In short, why does he give us free will and then expect us to forego its use?
Natural evil is via demons and he wants to test us.
Ahahaha, demons? Really? Got proof that demons exist?
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#12 by CdesignProponentsist » May 04, 2012 10:35 pm
Animavore wrote:AtheismIsIrrational wrote:Nebogipfel wrote:How does free will account for the suffering caused by natural disasters?
If God gives us free will in the knowledge that some of us will use it to not comply with his commands, why does he punish us for doing so?
In short, why does he give us free will and then expect us to forego its use?
Natural evil is via demons and he wants to test us.
And how do you know this, exactly?
Tell me. Are you lying or delusional?
Documented Observation
Scientific reasoning
Personal experience
The Bible says so
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#13 by AtheismIsIrrational » May 04, 2012 10:36 pm
No, it's for YOU to prove that demons don't exist. It explains why there is natural evil.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#14 by I.C.37 » May 04, 2012 10:37 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all.
Why the false dichotomy between allowing evil and having no free will whatsoever? Can't we be free in absolutely everything else except in doing evil? Isn't that the essence of man-made laws, that freedom should stop at evil acts? Maybe such a world would not be as entertaining to your deity?
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#15 by Macroinvertebrate » May 04, 2012 10:38 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:No, it's for YOU to prove that demons don't exist. It explains why there is natural evil.
Are you sure you don't want to edit that post? I mean, that's one of the dumbest things I've read on this site. Might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of the 'burden of proof' before your next intellectually vacuous, knee-jerk post.
Last edited by Macroinvertebrate on May 04, 2012 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#16 by AtheismIsIrrational » May 04, 2012 10:40 pm
Unless, you can prove why demons are illogical or evidence that don't exist. It can explain why there is natural evil without hurting God's all-lovingness.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#17 by CdesignProponentsist » May 04, 2012 10:41 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:No, it's for YOU to prove that demons don't exist. It explains why there is natural evil.
So you make an unfounded claim and it is the responsibility of others to prove it wrong, otherwise it should become the established explanation.
Okay, so i contend that it isn't demons at all. It is leprechauns.
The ball is in your court.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#18 by Macroinvertebrate » May 04, 2012 10:42 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:
Unless, you can prove why demons are illogical or evidence that don't exist. It can explain why there is natural evil without hurting God's all-lovingness.
What a crock of horseshit. It's up to you to prove that garden fairies don't exist. Go!
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#19 by AtheismIsIrrational » May 04, 2012 10:42 pm
CdesignProponentsist wrote:AtheismIsIrrational wrote:No, it's for YOU to prove that demons don't exist. It explains why there is natural evil.
So you make an unfounded claim and it is the responsibility of others to prove it wrong, otherwise it should become the established explanation.
Okay, so i contend that it isn't demons at all. It is leprechauns.
The ball is in your court.
I'll say it again: Unless, you can prove why demons are illogical or evidence that don't exist. It can explain why there is natural evil without hurting God's all-lovingness.
Leprechauns could also acceptable to why there is evil without going against God's all-lovingness.
Last edited by AtheismIsIrrational on May 04, 2012 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problem of Evil has been solved
#20 by Animavore » May 04, 2012 10:43 pm
AtheismIsIrrational wrote:No, it's for YOU to prove that demons don't exist. It explains why there is natural evil.
What backward logic. You prove they exist. Show me one.
No?
Don't make claims you can't back up.
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