Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

Now kids, which of these stories is real?

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Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#1  Postby Sovereign » Jul 17, 2014 10:58 pm

Abstract
In two studies, 5- and 6-year-old children were questioned about the status of the protagonist embedded in three different types of stories. In realistic stories that only included ordinary events, all children, irrespective of family background and schooling, claimed that the protagonist was a real person. In religious stories that included ordinarily impossible events brought about by divine intervention, claims about the status of the protagonist varied sharply with exposure to religion. Children who went to church or were enrolled in a parochial school, or both, judged the protagonist in religious stories to be a real person, whereas secular children with no such exposure to religion judged the protagonist in religious stories to be fictional. Children's upbringing was also related to their judgment about the protagonist in fantastical stories that included ordinarily impossible events whether brought about by magic (Study 1) or without reference to magic (Study 2). Secular children were more likely than religious children to judge the protagonist in such fantastical stories to be fictional. The results suggest that exposure to religious ideas has a powerful impact on children's differentiation between reality and fiction, not just for religious stories but also for fantastical stories.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24995520
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#2  Postby Varangian » Jul 17, 2014 11:27 pm

This was sort of apparent back in the 1980's and the Dungeons & Dragons scare, where religious nutjobs claimed that the D&D rulebooks taught kids to use magic and cast curses. If your favourite piece of reading is the bumper book of goatherder myths, and you believe in the power of prayer, you seem more likely to hold stupid notions about reality versus fantasy.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#3  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 17, 2014 11:50 pm

Anyone able to gain access to the full paper? I'd like to read this.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#4  Postby Wimsey » Jul 18, 2014 4:58 am

If you teach them to believe in magic (or else!) they'll believe (or pretend to) in magic. How are little kids supposed to differentiate the brands and flavours of magic their adults approve and disapprove of? That takes training. Thus: religious schools.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#5  Postby Sovereign » Jul 18, 2014 5:01 am

Calilasseia wrote:Anyone able to gain access to the full paper? I'd like to read this.


Unfortunately no. I've been looking.

Edit: This is the best I can do currently. Maybe your library or institution can access it?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 9E3.f01t04
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#6  Postby Scar » Jul 18, 2014 9:56 am

So much about us being hard-wired to believe in such shit.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#7  Postby Wimsey » Jul 19, 2014 3:16 am

The nonsense about being hard-wired to religion is one of those clever sleights-of-propaganda. Take a few observed traits of human beings, such as a tendency to hypothesize from limited information, or the story-telling habit, or the need to feel in control; juxtapose them onto an already-established power structure that has made use of these qualities to manipulate people, and Shaz-zam! religion is inevitable....
...and therefore must be based on fact.

A child who had never been told about gods might invent an imaginary friend or talk to his toy tiger, but he knows these are products of his own imagination - indeed, that's mostly the point. Healthy children outgrow the need for such stories as they grow more confident of their ability to deal with the world. If you drive them crazy by denying their experience and threatening dire punishment for being their natural selves, they'll always need psychological props. And, since all fiction is equally impalpable, the only way they'll know which props are safe is by trusting a self-proclaimed expert in mumbo-jumbo.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#8  Postby Onyx8 » Jul 19, 2014 3:33 am

Indeed. My son, now twelve, had an amazing stock of imaginary friends (none of whom I introduced him to, or his mother) Literally dozens of them all named with characters ( "Dad, Bonzi doesn't ride in the front of the truck, Greenboy needs grass, not fruit!!!!") When he learned to write ~5/6 one of the first things he wrote was a table of all his friends and their names/attributes.

As he grows, his imaginary friends become way more insubstantial: I no longer have to back the truck up so that Poncey can get the 'trailer' hooked up to the truck, or have another chair set at a restaurant for Dounce. But he still goes out into the back yard when he needs to and sets about him with all kinds of sharp/bludgeoning weapons on people/things who exist only in his mind.

He still does this but is utterly weirded out by people who claim that fairies 'really exist' or that 'god is real'. He says to me: "Why don't these people grow up?"
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#9  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 20, 2014 2:07 am

Wimsey wrote:The nonsense about being hard-wired to religion is one of those clever sleights-of-propaganda. Take a few observed traits of human beings, such as a tendency to hypothesize from limited information, or the story-telling habit, or the need to feel in control; juxtapose them onto an already-established power structure that has made use of these qualities to manipulate people, and Shaz-zam! religion is inevitable....
...and therefore must be based on fact.


But only supernaturalists play this particular apologetic game, of course. The rest of us realise that our ability to make shit up, and project that made up shit upon our surroundings, doesn't convert that made up shit into fact. Saying that a propensity to treat made up shit as fact lends itself to manipulation, is of course a separate issue. :)

Wimsey wrote:A child who had never been told about gods might invent an imaginary friend or talk to his toy tiger, but he knows these are products of his own imagination - indeed, that's mostly the point. Healthy children outgrow the need for such stories as they grow more confident of their ability to deal with the world.


Indeed.

Wimsey wrote:If you drive them crazy by denying their experience and threatening dire punishment for being their natural selves, they'll always need psychological props. And, since all fiction is equally impalpable, the only way they'll know which props are safe is by trusting a self-proclaimed expert in mumbo-jumbo.


Which is exactly what the enforcers of conformity to doctrine want. And why we should be resolute in not giving it to them.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#10  Postby Wimsey » Jul 20, 2014 5:08 am

Well, sure. It's all about power. Always has been. But while Abraham's imaginary friend was raised only one magnitude above him, Constantine's was two magnitudes up - in deference to the much bigger empire of Rome - and America's, having been pushed outward by science, and upward by hegemony, is raised to the power of six or seven. This is no longer the cozy tribal God whom Tevye can consult about his daughter's choice of husband; this is an omni-everything entity.... which, nevertheless, cares whether you masturbate.

Nobody can comprehend such a concept. Theologians trained for years in double- and triple-think struggle with it. And we expect children barely able to form a sentence to take it in stride?
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#11  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 20, 2014 5:29 am

Worse still, there are idiots in the USA who think that their pet mythological magic man routinely intervenes in the observable, physical universe, to the point of raining down punishments upon various undesirables (though I notice the aim is routinely extremely bad - all those tornadoes chewing up the Bible Belt instead of godless Scandinavia, for example), and some of these people also think that their magic man wants them to start World War III in order to hasten the fucking Rapture. Which means that they're not just sad, delusional idiots incapable of differentiating between fact and fantasy, and with an infantile attachment to bad fiction, but they're dangerous, sad, delusional idiots who constitute a threat to the entire human species if ever they're allowed near any real power.
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Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing

#12  Postby HomerJay » Jul 24, 2014 7:54 pm

Young children who are exposed to religion have a hard time differentiating between fact and fiction, according to a new study published in the July issue of Cognitive Science.

Researchers presented 5- and 6-year-old children from both public and parochial schools with three different types of stories -- religious, fantastical and realistic –- in an effort to gauge how well they could identify narratives with impossible elements as fictional.

The study found that, of the 66 participants, children who went to church or were enrolled in a parochial school were significantly less able than secular children to identify supernatural elements, such as talking animals, as fictional.

By relating seemingly impossible religious events achieved through divine intervention (e.g., Jesus transforming water into wine) to fictional narratives, religious children would more heavily rely on religion to justify their false categorizations.

“In both studies, [children exposed to religion] were less likely to judge the characters in the fantastical stories as pretend, and in line with this equivocation, they made more appeals to reality and fewer appeals to impossibility than did secular children,” the study concluded.

Refuting previous hypotheses claiming that children are “born believers,” the authors suggest that “religious teaching, especially exposure to miracle stories, leads children to a more generic receptivity toward the impossible, that is, a more wide-ranging acceptance that the impossible can happen in defiance of ordinary causal relations.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/2 ... 07009.html
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Re: Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing

#13  Postby Arnold Layne » Jul 24, 2014 8:36 pm

Quelle surprise! :nono:
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Re: Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing

#14  Postby trubble76 » Jul 25, 2014 12:47 pm

Hmm, teaching kids to believe in made-up shite leads to kids believing in made-up shite, you say? My flabber is well and truly gasted.
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Re: Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing

#15  Postby Scar » Jul 25, 2014 12:51 pm

Uhm I think we had a topic about this.
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Re: Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing

#16  Postby Federico » Jul 25, 2014 3:22 pm

Scar wrote:Uhm I think we had a topic about this.


Yes,indeed, and the title is Religious People Are Less Intelligent Than Atheists.

Here I reproduce one or two paragraphs of my posts for the Thread:

"....There is a study by a Canadian group from the Douglas Mental Health University Institute, Montreal led by Dr. Patrick O. McGowan that found when child abuse exists there is a change in a gene (NR3C1) that affects how the child will deal with abuse. That gene was much lower in abuse victims who eventually took their lives. It would seem that childhood abuse had changed the structure of the gene so that it was less active. And these changes endured throughout their lives. It changed the way the whole stress apparatus functioned (the HPA). McGowan implies that the changes are stable and that they alter the gene’s activity leading to later illness and suicidal tendencies. When that gene is ineffective it cannot produce the kind of alerting, galvanizing chemicals that help one fight through things (glucocorticoid hormones). So the body behaves as though it were constantly under stress when there is none apparent. It is reacting to the imprint. What this research group believes is that mothers can affect the fate of their children even before they are born. The epigenetic changes could force the children to be depressed and suicidal later on. It will look like genetics but it will be more than that".....

Now, if we believe Richard Dawkins when he writes in chapter 9 of his book The God Delusion that forced religious education is a stress more damaging for the child's mental health even than sexual abuse, then we may begin to understand why religious persons are indeed mostly brain damaged, low IQ individuals.[/quote]

I'll add now that for the moment it's impossible to know whether the damage is permanent or only temporary, and also that I apologized for beeing too absolutist, since not all sincere believers are brain damaged, and that atheists may become religious in midlife without apparently having aquired any specific brain lesion.
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Re: Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing

#17  Postby Wimsey » Jul 25, 2014 3:52 pm

It's not only religious education that causes this kind of confusion, though. It would be equally true of any teaching that requires the child to believe whatever is contrary to his experience. When we make him recite "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" and he lives in Miami or Watts; when we tell her she can be anything she wants if only she works hard, then deny her birth control or protection from predators; all propaganda will have one of three effects: blur the line between fact and fiction, cause anxiety with all its manifestations, or turn the person off intellectually. Sometimes all three.
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Re: Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing

#18  Postby Federico » Jul 26, 2014 1:21 pm

Wimsey wrote:It's not only religious education that causes this kind of confusion, though. It would be equally true of any teaching that requires the child to believe whatever is contrary to his experience. When we make him recite "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" and he lives in Miami or Watts; when we tell her she can be anything she wants if only she works hard, then deny her birth control or protection from predators; all propaganda will have one of three effects: blur the line between fact and fiction, cause anxiety with all its manifestations, or turn the person off intellectually. Sometimes all three.


Yes and no.
What we are talking about in this Thread (and in the previous one) is the negative impact on a child's developing brain of severe stress such as religious teachings may induce when replete with fire and brimstone and cavorting devils ready to drag you to Hell as an unrepented sinner.
That such stress might be more severe even than that caused by being sexually assaulted I find hard to believe and, in any case, difficult to accept by a pedophile hater such as myself.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#19  Postby laklak » Jul 26, 2014 3:59 pm

They're fed all sort of nonsense and told it's Absolute Truth. Talking snakes, man-swallowing fish, devils and demons, an endless litany of bullshit. It's no wonder the little nits get confused.
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Re: Religious vs Non-Religious Children And Magical Fiction

#20  Postby Clive Durdle » Jul 26, 2014 5:41 pm

Sometimes I wonder if religion and superstition are actually very weak and will come a tumbling down or disappear like morning mist and dew with a little application of critical thinking.
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