A general statement on the historical rights and wrongs: rehashing them doesn't help to solve this. Nation states aren't moral actors. Whether Jewish immigration to the Levant was right or wrong, it happened, Israel has existed for over 60 years, and it isn't going anywhere.

This is only going to be solved by the Israeli government, and the Palestinian government/s, negotiating a sovereign Palestinian state. The New Republic has published a first-rate inside scoop on the latest failed talks: long, but well worth the read. What emerges aren't two groups of zealots, but two weary groups of politicians capable of a negotiated compromise, but hostage to their own extremists.

Realpolitik will, I have no doubt, eventually solve this, but only after a way can be found to sideline the zealots.

Steve wrote:What makes me sick is I pay taxes that are used to pay to escalate this mess. That fact leaves a very very bad taste in my mouth.

3-minute video...

Saying Arab's should fling open borders to Palestinians is like saying the UK should fling open its borders to Poland and Turkey. Or the US to Mexico because they are all 'American' or 'European'

While I do have some sympathy for people who choose being able to work and live everywhere they want (ie the ideals of the EU) its a bit different when they are forced to.

Language is important and generally when the Palestinians are called 'Arabs' you have a fair idea where that persons sympathy is with and its not the Palestinians.

George Galloway constantly calls Israel a white European/American settler state (which is correct) but guess where his sympathies are with

Byron wrote:
As I said, why isn't this issue better known,

Better known where? By whom?

Byron wrote:and why do Arab states get such an easy ride on the matter?

Not from me at least, but this is a completely seperate issue from the current conflict in Israel/Palestine.
Naturalising Palestinians in the neighbouring Arab countries won't solve this conflict.

Byron wrote:
I didn't say that Arab states should fling open their borders to Palestinian refugees: I said they should offer all those already resident (the vast majority of whom are born there) the right to naturalize and integrate. Since they're already living there, it has nothing to do with resources and demographics, and everything to do with ideology. I did mention Jordan earlier in this regard, but even they're lukewarm at best, and revoked the citizenship of thousands of Palestinians a few years back (a decision since reversed).

As I said, why isn't this issue better known, and why do Arab states get such an easy ride on the matter?

As you say this was politics and poorly implemented, but helped to expose Israeli behaviour toward former residents of the West Bank:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/02/01/jordan-stop-withdrawing-nationality-palestinian-origin-citizens

"Jordanian officials have withdrawn their nationality ostensibly for failing to possess a valid Israeli-issued residency permit for the West Bank. But this condition for citizenship has no clear basis in Jordanian law. Such permits are notoriously difficult - if not impossible - to obtain given Israel's restrictive policies on granting West Bank residency rights to Palestinians."

"Two weeks before its expiration, I traveled from Kuwait to Amman and from there to the West Bank. At the crossing bridge, I gave the Israeli soldier my permit, and copies of the previous renewals. A while later, she came back and said, "You did not renew your permit." She had lost the last renewal form."

willhud9 wrote:

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:If you so strongly feel it's all proportionate then go and join the Israeli army. maybe you can have the pleasure of pressing the button to launch the next air strike on defenceless homes. that'll teach them to elect a bunch of crazy leaders. come to think of it, any country who elects a bunch of violent war mongers should be flattened with explosives. that should be the only requirement.

Cry harder.

So Israel should do what when its bombed? Just sit back? Maybe abolish its country and move someplace else? Because that's feasible.

You think crying is a bad response to innocent people being killed?

willhud9 wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Absolutely, and I don't understand why Israel doesn't see that time isn't on their side. They're losing; they can't destroy the opposition, because if they become too bloodthirsty they lose the last shred of legitimacy they have in the world, and they could easily be overtaken by the military power of Turkey, Iran, Syria, Egypt and the Gulf states if they went for some sort of genocidal attack on Gaza and the West Bank. If genocide is what they gamble on they will even lose the support of the US, and they would be finished. So they need to gamble for diplomacy.

It is not fucking genocide. My fucking God.

Do people not understand English or is it reinvent words to mean something it doesn't. Israel is NOT FUCKING SEEKING TO EXTERMINATE EVERY PALESTINIAN IN PALESTINE.

Until you can get your minds around that simple fact youre point is nothing but bullshit. Plain and fucking simple.

Actually you're right. It's not a genocide, it's re long-term relocation.
Every time a palestinian leaves his home, for any reason, some israelian associations buy this home and install an israelian family inside. That's also a simple fact. And what is best to make people leave their home than a "war" targetting pretty much only civilians ?
With this and all the illegal settlements, there won't be any palestinian left there in 50 years.

Especially since the US is doing nothing to make things better. This week, the UN voted a resolution to start an investigation on Israel war crimes, the vote went this way : 29 for, 17 abstentions, 1 against. Guess who ?

UN definition of genocide, there is no need to physically kill every member of a group to commit genocide. Israel is committing genocide

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

only because I was curious:

Gaza
Population - 2014 estimate 1,816,379
Killed so far in 16 days 750

That's about 3 times the number of people in MH17, that plane that was shut down. And yet here in the Netherlands we had an outpouring of public grief and outrage over the plane and not much over Gaza.

Regardless of who is to blame: let's just remember this is a tragedy, and behave and communicate accordingly.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:That's about 3 times the number of people in MH17, that plane that was shut down. And yet here in the Netherlands we had an outpouring of public grief and outrage over the plane and not much over Gaza.

Regardless of who is to blame: let's just remember this is a tragedy, and behave and communicate accordingly.

Where's the outrage for the people being killed by Ukraine? Oh wait we support Ukraine so they are called collateral, always so confusing.

Them damn zionist Jews though.

Acetone wrote:Them damn zionist Jews though.

Ron Paul blames Obama. I had no idea he was Jewish too.

Acetone wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:That's about 3 times the number of people in MH17, that plane that was shut down. And yet here in the Netherlands we had an outpouring of public grief and outrage over the plane and not much over Gaza.

Regardless of who is to blame: let's just remember this is a tragedy, and behave and communicate accordingly.

Where's the outrage for the people being killed by Ukraine? Oh wait we support Ukraine so they are called collateral, always so confusing.

Them damn zionist Jews though.

What are you saying, are you assuming I don't feel sorry for anyone who suffers in the Ukrainian conflict? Of course I do. It's a tragedy whenever there are innocent people ending up as victims of any conflict, wherever it happens and for whatever reason.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Acetone wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:That's about 3 times the number of people in MH17, that plane that was shut down. And yet here in the Netherlands we had an outpouring of public grief and outrage over the plane and not much over Gaza.

Regardless of who is to blame: let's just remember this is a tragedy, and behave and communicate accordingly.

Where's the outrage for the people being killed by Ukraine? Oh wait we support Ukraine so they are called collateral, always so confusing.

Them damn zionist Jews though.

What are you saying, are you assuming I don't feel sorry for anyone who suffers in the Ukrainian conflict? Of course I do. It's a tragedy whenever there are innocent people ending up as victims of any conflict, wherever it happens and for whatever reason.

Given that what was so special about the Malaysian passanger jet - other than thouse people could afford to fly - just like us?

Pebble wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Acetone wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:That's about 3 times the number of people in MH17, that plane that was shut down. And yet here in the Netherlands we had an outpouring of public grief and outrage over the plane and not much over Gaza.

Regardless of who is to blame: let's just remember this is a tragedy, and behave and communicate accordingly.

Where's the outrage for the people being killed by Ukraine? Oh wait we support Ukraine so they are called collateral, always so confusing.

Them damn zionist Jews though.

What are you saying, are you assuming I don't feel sorry for anyone who suffers in the Ukrainian conflict? Of course I do. It's a tragedy whenever there are innocent people ending up as victims of any conflict, wherever it happens and for whatever reason.

Given that what was so special about the Malaysian passanger jet - other than thouse people could afford to fly - just like us?

Over a 100 Dutch people died.

Deliberate massacre in Gaza...


__________________________________________________


Murderers of women and children... dancing joyously and blessing artillery shells...

Fucking sickos

There was an odd article in the extremist liberal UK newspaper Independent the other day (it's basically the daily mail for vegan beard and sandal wearers) 'debunking' a picture that purportedly showed israeli children writing 'funny' messages like "from israel with love" on artillery shells that would be fired at the palestinians. The debunking consisted of noting that admittedly the pictures showed precisely that, but dated from a few years ago instead

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Acetone wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:That's about 3 times the number of people in MH17, that plane that was shut down. And yet here in the Netherlands we had an outpouring of public grief and outrage over the plane and not much over Gaza.

Regardless of who is to blame: let's just remember this is a tragedy, and behave and communicate accordingly.

Where's the outrage for the people being killed by Ukraine? Oh wait we support Ukraine so they are called collateral, always so confusing.

Them damn zionist Jews though.

What are you saying, are you assuming I don't feel sorry for anyone who suffers in the Ukrainian conflict? Of course I do. It's a tragedy whenever there are innocent people ending up as victims of any conflict, wherever it happens and for whatever reason.

No, I'm pointing out the disproportionate amount of anger and sadness and talk about supreme morality.

Byron wrote:A general statement on the historical rights and wrongs: rehashing them doesn't help to solve this. Nation states aren't moral actors. Whether Jewish immigration to the Levant was right or wrong, it happened, Israel has existed for over 60 years, and it isn't going anywhere.

Unless it does. Which I suppose could happen, but it probably wouldn't matter all that much, because the world wouldn't be around that much longer.

This is only going to be solved by the Israeli government, and the Palestinian government/s, negotiating a sovereign Palestinian state.

There isn't a Palestinian government. There may be a Palestinian something-or-other. But whatever it is, it has to be sub-government, because it if were a government, people might wonder why they didn't do the things that governments do, like collect taxes and dig wells and build power plants and houses and squat around in tents for a half century and say that things would be great if it weren't for all the Jews.

Governments either take and keep their territory and people, by force if necessary, and if they don't, or if they aren't aggressive enough, then somebody else takes it. That's how nations work. That is not what is going on here.