pl0bs wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:

pl0bs wrote:Even brains have microbial ancestors.

Brains didnt evolve?

I thought I'd explained to you that the evolution of the human brain did not begin with microbes. It began with the appearance of primitive brain structures in early craniates, such as the hagfish.

Every aspect of the human brain has a simpler version.

Yes, but in older vertebrate species, not microbes, ffs!

The older vertebrate species didnt evolve?

Ha! When did I say that? Brain evolution does not magically happen across the entire animal kingdom. Our brains cannot be traced back to microbe brains, OK? You have grossly misunderstood animal evolution.

DavidMcC wrote:I thought I'd explained to you that the evolution of the human brain did not begin with microbes. It began with the appearance of primitive brain structures in early craniates, such as the hagfish.

So where did the primitive brain come from, it didnt pop into existence did it? No it evolved just the same from a simpler structure. The question you should ask yourself is: when is something a brain, and when isnt it?

Look up sorites paradox:

The sorites paradox is a paradox that arises from vague predicates.[3] A typical formulation involves a heap of sand, from which grains are individually removed. Under the assumption that removing a single grain does not turn a heap into a non-heap, the paradox is to consider what happens when the process is repeated enough times: is a single remaining grain still a heap? (Or are even no grains at all a heap?) If not, when did it change from a heap to a non-heap?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox

Ha! When did I say that? Brain evolution does not magically happen across the entire animal kingdom. Our brains cannot be traced back to microbe brains, OK? You have grossly misunderstood animal evolution.

Every part of our bodies can be traced back to the very first organism from which we are descendants. If you look into sorites paradox, you will see that the definition of brains and non-brains, just like that of a heap and a non-heap, is arbitrary.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:Behold: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philo ... t2663.html

Dont you find it strange that all known biological traits have a simpler version (including brains), but when it comes to consciousness people insist it doesnt?

Never insisted on any such thing. It's continuous.

Thus microbes are conscious.

Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Never insisted on any such thing. It's continuous.

Thus microbes are conscious.

Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Nice job. Intellectual Whack-A-Mole.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:Thus microbes are conscious.

Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Nice job. Intellectual Whack-A-Mole.

Ahhh Avogadro!

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Never insisted on any such thing. It's continuous.

Thus microbes are conscious.

Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Actually, Speed was exaggerating when he compared the "mind" of a microbe to a grain of sand. No appropriate brain circuits -> no conscious mind, so not even one grain of salt there.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:Thus microbes are conscious.

Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Nice job. Intellectual Whack-A-Mole.

Huh, so now suddenly sand doesnt consist of particles, forces and spacetime anymore?

DavidMcC wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:Thus microbes are conscious.

Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Actually, Speed was exaggerating when he compared the "mind" of a microbe to a grain of sand. No appropriate brain circuits -> no conscious mind, so not even one grain of salt there.

Im afraid science disagrees with you. Nothing personal, its just the way it is.

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Nice job. Intellectual Whack-A-Mole.

Huh, so now suddenly sand doesnt consist of particles, forces and spacetime anymore?

Huh, so suddenly you completely changed the subject in your responding post. Yubs.
Disingenuous. Blatant intellectual dishonesty. If I had my way you would be tossed out of here on your ass. Yubsels.

pl0bs wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Actually, Speed was exaggerating when he compared the "mind" of a microbe to a grain of sand. No appropriate brain circuits -> no conscious mind, so not even one grain of salt there.

Im afraid science disagrees with you. Nothing personal, its just the way it is.

Oh, really? Please supply a scientific reference to that. However, I won't hold my breath for it - I want to live.

Oh please, please, please hold your breath!

DavidMcC wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:

pl0bs wrote:A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Actually, Speed was exaggerating when he compared the "mind" of a microbe to a grain of sand. No appropriate brain circuits -> no conscious mind, so not even one grain of salt there.

Im afraid science disagrees with you. Nothing personal, its just the way it is.

Oh, really? Please supply a scientific reference to that. However, I won't hold my breath for it - I want to live.

Well for a start, brains really did evolve. Even the early primitive ones.

Btw, your claim that "appropriate brain circuits" are needed for consciousness, is simply an assumption.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Nice job. Intellectual Whack-A-Mole.

Huh, so now suddenly sand doesnt consist of particles, forces and spacetime anymore?

Huh, so suddenly you completely changed the subject in your responding post. Yubs.
Disingenuous. Blatant intellectual dishonesty. If I had my way you would be tossed out of here on your ass. Yubsels.

Actually, it was you who changed the subject into an "intellectual whack-a-mole"-discussion. My bet is you didnt like where the rational part of the discussion was going (it was going towards the complete falsification of your beliefs).

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Nice job. Intellectual Whack-A-Mole.

Huh, so now suddenly sand doesnt consist of particles, forces and spacetime anymore?

Huh, so suddenly you completely changed the subject in your responding post. Yubs.
Disingenuous. Blatant intellectual dishonesty. If I had my way you would be tossed out of here on your ass. Yubsels.

Actually, it was you who changed the subject into an "intellectual whack-a-mole"-discussion. My bet is you didnt like where the rational part of the discussion was going (it was going towards the complete falsification of your beliefs).

FFS! YOU changed the subject. Do you not even see it yourself? You mean it wasn't a clever trick in discourse, but rather it was an idiotic blunder?

I offered an ANALOGY. Grain of sand is to microbe as human is to pile. The consciousness of a microbe compared to that of a human. I suggested it was continuous as have you.

THEN!! YOU

...change the subject to consciousness of the objects I was using in my analogy. C of a pile of sand has FUCK-ALL to do with the analogy or the discussion.

I have oft referred to this trick as That Strange CosmoCon Thingy. Are you telling me that you aren't even skilled enough at this sort of thing to even get that you did it? If that is the case my apologies Junior. Go read some books and buy some big boy pants and come back when you get it.

SpeedOfSound wrote:FFS! YOU changed the subject. Do you not even see it yourself? You mean it wasn't a clever trick in discourse, but rather it was an idiotic blunder?

I offered an ANALOGY. Grain of sand is to microbe as human is to pile. The consciousness of a microbe compared to that of a human. I suggested it was continuous as have you.

THEN!! YOU

...change the subject to consciousness of the objects I was using in my analogy. C of a pile of sand has FUCK-ALL to do with the analogy or the discussion.

I have oft referred to this trick as That Strange CosmoCon Thingy. Are you telling me that you aren't even skilled enough at this sort of thing to even get that you did it? If that is the case my apologies Junior. Go read some books and buy some big boy pants and come back when you get it.

It was neither a blunder nor a trick, it was a genius checkmate move. Lets take a closer-look:

pl0bs wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

pl0bs wrote:Thus microbes are conscious.

Just as much as a grain of sand is a pile.

A conscious mind may well decide to call it a pile yes. Physically speaking, the grain of sand is a quantity of particles, forces, spacetime.

Here we can see that you compare "microbe consciousness" with "a grain of sand being a pile". I fully agree. Why do i agree? Because its what ive been saying in every sorites paradox post i ever made: "pile" is an arbitrary label. It exists as a linguistic term, whereas physically it consists of particles, forces, spacetime. Im fine with consciousness being an arbitrary label too. Why? Because arbitrariness is a conscious activity in the first place.

Btw, the red bit in your post is wrong. It was about consciousness, not humans.

What were the simpler forms of "linguistic terms" 13.8 billion years ago?

Quantum Soup.....mmmmmm.

Fun knee. I'll bet the croutons were an arbitrary extra too, lol.

newolder wrote:What were the simpler forms of "linguistic terms" 13.8 billion years ago?

Consciousness.

pl0bs wrote:

newolder wrote:What were the simpler forms of "linguistic terms" 13.8 billion years ago?

Consciousness.

Not according to your own definitions.

"pile" is an arbitrary label. It exists as a linguistic term, whereas physically it consists of particles, forces, spacetime.

How does an arbitrary label have experiences?