johnbrandt wrote:Seeing some of the overly-generous unsustainable benefits they receive in Greece and the extremely early retirement age, maybe they need a bit of "austerity"...welcome to the real world...

"Received" - past tense.

As I understand it most of the unsustainable public sector and welfare bloat has been addressed, over the course of the last five years of austerity. There's not much point carrying on as though they still need to be taught a lesson for things that happened in the past. I don't think anyone ever denied that the Greek state was OTT and needed reining in. The problem is that now that's happened, the country is extremely poor with many people literally on the verge of starvation, and still in shedloads of debt. That debt persists despite them having run a budget surplus for several years now.

There's no more juice in that lemon to be squeezed. Certainly not enough to make a significant difference to the debt mountain anyway. I can't see how there's any solution other than some kind of write-off.

johnbrandt wrote:Seeing some of the overly-generous unsustainable benefits they receive in Greece and the extremely early retirement age, maybe they need a bit of "austerity"...welcome to the real world...

Greeks can do arithmetics. If they can get the numbers right while keeping the retirement age as it is, that is fine. Rather than Brussels telling them what to cut while keeping them on an IV drip, the Greek government should decide on those cuts themselves so they can't blame any outside forces for the political fallout.

As GT2211 pointed out, it was "known" some time ago Greece would not be able to pay ~ Greek economy would not be able to produce enough.

Even if Greece accepts all measures that troika is asking, nothing would change

from the horse's mouth...

Greece would face an unsustainable level of debt by 2030 even if it signs up to the full package of tax and spending reforms demanded of it, according to unpublished documents compiled by its three main creditors.

The documents, drawn up by the so-called troika of lenders, support Greece’s argument that it needs substantial debt relief for a lasting economic recovery. They show that, even after 15 years of sustained strong growth, the country would face a level of debt that the International Monetary Fund deems unsustainable.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... ill-needed

Ireland did it. Why cant Greece?

Ireland even accepted a worst offer. Look how much money has been withdrawn from the banks.

Desperate Greeks Withdraw Money from Accounts

johnbrandt wrote:Seeing some of the overly-generous unsustainable benefits they receive in Greece and the extremely early retirement age, maybe they need a bit of "austerity"...welcome to the real world...

The Greek retirement age has been raised to 67 in only a few years. Which really means throwing people into deep poverty given the massive unemployment figures. Greeks also have the longest work weeks of the EU member states.

These ridiculously massive austerity measures make no sense at all. They just harm the common man whilst money flees to rich, corrupt elites. Add to that privatization schemes that allow foreign companies (e.g. Chinese companies) to buy large parts of Greek industry. Sure. Greece was and probably still is corrupt as fuck. But to be honest the EU should never have allowed Greece to join the Euro, they didn't even meet the requirements (neither did Italy).

In my opinion Greece should be put out of the Eurozone, but in a managed way. Its debts should largely be dismissed, and it should be allowed to run its country as it wishes. This entire mess is basically the result of early 1990's political utopian thinking. Hell, if you have to destroy your country to pay off debts and then can't pay off those debts because you destroyed your country is such a simple concept it hurts. Yet the EU leaders insist on pushing this through. What a disgrace.

Beatsong wrote:

johnbrandt wrote:Seeing some of the overly-generous unsustainable benefits they receive in Greece and the extremely early retirement age, maybe they need a bit of "austerity"...welcome to the real world...

"Received" - past tense.

As I understand it most of the unsustainable public sector and welfare bloat has been addressed, over the course of the last five years of austerity.

Most of it had been addressed under the previous Samaras government, yes. The primary issue outstanding was unfunded pension liabilities.

However, it all got de-addressed by the Tsipras government, which reversed many government cost cutting initiatives.

It's also to be noted that under Samaras, the Greek economy was growing, unemployment was shrinking, and the government was running a surplus before interest. None of that is true under Tsipras.

Greece's current straits are a monument to radical leftist economic policies, nothing more and nothing less.

Hello people,
I have not been on for a long time, but as I am someone who lives in Greece, things are not so simple. Unfortunately, if people in Greece say NO in the fucked-up referendum, Greece will go bankrupt, we will have no money to import pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, food, etc. The government under Tsipras has no plan for a NO as far as I know; with a YES at least there is a chance to restructure the debt, to work with the EU to make things better, and have no shortages in areas that count. ANd if people vote NO, they do not understand how much the new currency will be undervalued, which means that greek money will have no value beyond Greece.
Right now, imports have frozen because companies are forbidden to transfer funds for paying goods and services, and we are starting to see shortages in super markets.
If NO prevails, there will be no paying for pensions because there will be no money, businesses will close immediately because of no money, unemployment will reach a new high, and there will be absolutely no hope.
Yes, the greek governments have a lot to answer for, for making all teh wrong choices. That doesn't mean that every person, and especially those ill and disabled people should pay the price.
Whatever happens, personally I am in deep shit. Right now, my company is closing due to the crisis, so I am half employed until the greek bureaucracy finally decides to give me that piece of paper that says I can close the company (been waiting since February). Since I am 46 years old, it means that I have no future in Greece, nobody will hire me or if they will, it will be for so little money that I will not be able to survive. Right now, I'm living with my mother, whose pension is 400 euros per month, I am paid 500 euros per month, and yes that's not enough, and whatever is in the bank is almost gone.
What good will do for people like me to get out of Europe and get a new currency? None. Zip. Zilch. Things will go progressively worse.
I am in deep shit, and really personal;ly, my only option is to find a job elsewhere.
So blame the governments for not making the right choices, but don't punish everyone for it. Especially not people who will not be able to get well, because of drug shortages.

johnbrandt wrote:Looking from afar the whole Euro thing has always looked to be a bit of a weird idea...you would have successful economic powerhouses right beside countries without a pot to piss in, and they are all expected to use the same currency worth the same amount whether you are in England, Germany, or Greece (for example)...? How the hell does that work? Surely one countries currency should be stronger than another if that "other" is somewhere in dire economic straits who you wouldn't trust to run a roadside fruit stand much less a national economy.
Wouldn't they just drag down all the successful economies around them?

Well I guess they are...one country looks like failing, all the others have to "fail equally", following them over the cliff. Looks like an astoundingly stupid idea to someone just looking on objectively.

'England' doesn't have the Euro.

Wow Darkchilde that sounds grim.

Is there any way you could move to another EU country where your skills would be employable? Now while Greece is still part of the EU, I mean.

Exodus of the young...

Young Greeks flee abroad as crisis deepens
2015-07-02

Athens - What does the future look like for young people in crisis-hit Greece, where years of hardship and sky-high unemployment were followed this week by bank closures? The answer: self-imposed exile.

"I don't see a future in Greece," sighs Dani Iordake. The 21-year-old, who proudly sports self-styled tattoos on his arms, was forced to drop out of university to help his mother pay the bills.
"It's a beautiful country... [but] I couldn't imagine living here and struggling every day," he said.

With youth unemployment at nearly 50% and a breakdown in negotiations with Greece's international creditors heralding further financial woes, many of Iordake's contemporaries are packing their bags.

Over 200 000 Greeks have quit the country since the financial crisis began in 2010, according to Endeavor Greece, a local chapter of an entrepreneurial promotional group. They have been driven away by a dearth of jobs, pitiful wages, endemic corruption and lack of meritocracy.
...

CONTINUED
Full article at:
http://www.news24.com/World/News/Young-Greeks-flee-abroad-as-crisis-deepens-20150702

Fallible wrote:

johnbrandt wrote:Looking from afar the whole Euro thing has always looked to be a bit of a weird idea...you would have successful economic powerhouses right beside countries without a pot to piss in, and they are all expected to use the same currency worth the same amount whether you are in England, Germany, or Greece (for example)...? How the hell does that work? Surely one countries currency should be stronger than another if that "other" is somewhere in dire economic straits who you wouldn't trust to run a roadside fruit stand much less a national economy.
Wouldn't they just drag down all the successful economies around them?

Well I guess they are...one country looks like failing, all the others have to "fail equally", following them over the cliff. Looks like an astoundingly stupid idea to someone just looking on objectively.

'England' doesn't have the Euro.

That is not all what John does not understand. We are in the European Union John. A union! Inside that Union there is a smaller group that fulfilled the economic criteria to form the Eurozone. Having the same currency makes life a lot simpler and better for trade. It also protects currencies from attacks from speculators that is why right wing America hates the Euro. During the crisis it was written off by those American speculators but it was in no real danger and now is a stable currency. The stability of Euro gives the Pound greater stability as well.

The Euro is only the first part of the harmonisation the EU. The next will be taxes which Britain as once again opted out. The right wing in Britain cant see the EU as anything else as a common market and expect it to remain so which is why Cameron was chunting on about changing the Union agreements. He has failed miserably already being given a slap on the wrists from Merkel.

Greece cooked the books to get into the EU and then cooked them again to get into the Euro which is why they are in the mess they are in. If they leave or stay will have little influence on the Euro but of course the speculators are using this to undermine the Euro. Greece's GDP is only 2% of the Eurogroup. We the Netherlands export only 1% of our export trade to Greece. This present left wing government has scrapped the measures in place to get the Greece economy growing which it was. Very slowly but there was growth. Now there is nothing and Greece once again playing the moaning little child expecting to get a pat on the head.

The troika has bent over backwards to help them and far more than it did for Ireland, Spain and Portugal whose economies are finally growing and the crisis is now over. Greece could have been in the same position but wanted more and now they have nothing. The crisis in the country was the result of bad government and rampant unchecked corruption.

The referendum will bring a yes vote. The Greeks know what they now have and leaving the Euro moves them into uncharted waters.

Beatsong wrote:Wow Darkchilde that sounds grim.

Is there any way you could move to another EU country where your skills would be employable? Now while Greece is still part of the EU, I mean.

Fortunately, I have double citizenship as my father was italian and my mother is greek. I ahve sent 3 applications for jobs yesterday and 4 more today and will apply for more in the coming days. So, yes, I can get out much easier than a lot of other people.

Scot Dutchy wrote:
The referendum will bring a yes vote. The Greeks know what they now have and leaving the Euro moves them into uncharted waters.

Don't be so sure. I am not optimistic for a yes vote. A lot of people are taking it "patriotically" and blaming the EU and troika for all the shit that both a number of greeks and the governments brought. I had written in another post way back when this shit started a number of reasons this happened.

But, the new government of total assholes and idiots, in 5 months they have done nothing, and instead of proposing some much needed reforms in the public sector, cutting paying priests and the church from the national budget, they were hiring back cleaning ladies with their old salary of 3-4 thousand euros, and generally this kind of shit. They have changed tax law at the last moment, so people that had given their tax statements have to do it all over again, etc. etc. No government has done any proper tax reform or similar...
The new government are worse assholes than the last ones. They've lied not just through their teeth like all tje rest but all way down to their assholes. Am I angry? Yes I am totally angry. I am angry because I've always paid taxes and dues, and atm because I am broke I can't even go out for a movie without thinking "will this movie be good and worth it? Or should I download it later?"

Darkchilde wrote:they were hiring back cleaning ladies with their old salary of 3-4 thousand euros,

You are joking? Will they never learn?

I heard last night that the referendum was 50/50 but the expectation was that it would swing to "yes".

Scot Dutchy wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:they were hiring back cleaning ladies with their old salary of 3-4 thousand euros,

You are joking? Will they never learn?

To people working in the public sector in the energy company (DEH) they gave 150 euros per month allowance for sandwiches during lunch break. And a number of hospitals were short on materials...

Scot Dutchy wrote:
I heard last night that the referendum was 50/50 but the expectation was that it would swing to "yes".

I certainly hope so, but I am not as optimistic.

Darkchilde wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:they were hiring back cleaning ladies with their old salary of 3-4 thousand euros,

You are joking? Will they never learn?

To people working in the public sector in the energy company (DEH) they gave 150 euros per month allowance for sandwiches during lunch break. And a number of hospitals were short on materials...

That's insane. I assume public sector jobs are well paid, but the process of getting them is hugely corrupt and nepotistic?

johnbrandt wrote:Looking from afar the whole Euro thing has always looked to be a bit of a weird idea...you would have successful economic powerhouses right beside countries without a pot to piss in, and they are all expected to use the same currency worth the same amount whether you are in England, Germany, or Greece (for example)...? How the hell does that work? Surely one countries currency should be stronger than another if that "other" is somewhere in dire economic straits who you wouldn't trust to run a roadside fruit stand much less a national economy.
Wouldn't they just drag down all the successful economies around them?

Well I guess they are...one country looks like failing, all the others have to "fail equally", following them over the cliff. Looks like an astoundingly stupid idea to someone just looking on objectively.

Countries like Germany have actually benefited from the membership of countries like Greece. Having a few poorly-performing economies in the Euro artificially lowered its value relative to other currencies, making German-manufactured products more affordable than they would otherwise have been.

So there's more than enough blame to go around.

The question is what to do now? The austerity measures have only deepened the recession to the point where the economy is basically paralysed.

johnbrandt wrote:Looking from afar the whole dollar thing has always looked to be a bit of a weird idea...you would have successful economic powerhouses right beside countries without a pot to piss in, and they are all expected to use the same currency worth the same amount whether you are in New York State, Illinois, or Alabama

F.I.F.Y