mcgruff wrote:Maybe next time you're in jail you could ...

Maybe next time you're around humanity you could act like you give a fuck.

People who are depressed, particularly those who are suicidally depressed, frequently don't reveal it in any significant manner, or express that they've given up hope.

Also, though YOU think you know she'd be released in a few days time (what assurance do you have of this, by the way), is it clear that SHE knew this? Or that she trusted anyone telling her this, given the shit she'd been put through by an agitated cop already?

The simple fact is that jail is a depressing and depressive environment, and that it is not beyond reason that someone in jail for a few days could exacerbate existing depression to become more suicidal - and that could push them to actual suicidal acts.

mcgruff wrote:Maybe next time you're in jail you could ask what percentage of people kill themselves after a few days incarceration when they expect to get out in a few more? It's not normal is it?

We have a phone call which provides some evidence of her mental state at the time. She did not sound despairing or defeated like she had given up hope. Neither did she sound agitated, confused, or in some kind of extreme emotional state. There's a lot to be explained and you can't just shrug it off by saying "jail is bad and shit happens".

If it's so fucking easy to tell when somebody is about to kill themselves or not then how the fuck come we have so many suicides? Since you seem to be claiming some sort of super human ability to detect a persons mental state and complete history of mental health based on a single phone call how about you throw on a cape and start saving some lives.

Weaver wrote:Maybe next time you're around humanity you could act like you give a fuck.

Maybe you could stop being such a patronising git.

And if you're going to presume to sneer at other people's imagined lack of knowledge of conditions in jail you could at least answer the fucking question: what percentage of people who have been in jail for a few days and who expect to get out in a few more commit suicide?

Weaver wrote:Also, though YOU think you know she'd be released in a few days time (what assurance do you have of this, by the way), is it clear that SHE knew this? Or that she trusted anyone telling her this, given the shit she'd been put through by an agitated cop already?

The court made a special, ground-breaking arrangement for Sandra Bland which has never before been seen in the legal system. If she handed over $5,000 they'd let her out of jail. I think they called it "bail" or something. What do I know though.

Weaver wrote:People who are depressed, particularly those who are suicidally depressed, frequently don't reveal it in any significant manner, or express that they've given up hope.

Weaver wrote:The simple fact is that jail is a depressing and depressive environment, and that it is not beyond reason that someone in jail for a few days could exacerbate existing depression to become more suicidal - and that could push them to actual suicidal acts.

We have to be careful with language. For example, it's depressing to see other posters getting angry and personal for no justifiable reason but it doesn't make me want to kill myself. Probably. Of course I can't say for certain what you'll do next or how I might react to that.

We're talking specifically about suicide and mental illness not simply being angry, frustrated or scared. It's possible that her mental state deteriorated in a very short space of time in response to confinement which she knew to be temporary but it doesn't seem likely, even with a history of depression. It's possible that if this did happen she might not have displayed any signs but it's not very likely. This isn't a slow build-up type of event but a sudden trauma.

If you roll the dice often enough edge cases do happen of course but at this point in time the question of murder or some kind of maltreatment is still very much alive.

mcgruff wrote:

Weaver wrote:Maybe next time you're around humanity you could act like you give a fuck.

Maybe you could stop being such a patronising git.

And if you're going to presume to sneer at other people's imagined lack of knowledge of conditions in jail you could at least answer the fucking question: what percentage of people who have been in jail for a few days and who expect to get out in a few more commit suicide?

First of all such data is impossible to compose second of all what evidence aside from speculation do you have that she expected to get out in a few days?

Weaver wrote:Also, though YOU think you know she'd be released in a few days time (what assurance do you have of this, by the way), is it clear that SHE knew this? Or that she trusted anyone telling her this, given the shit she'd been put through by an agitated cop already?

The court made a special, ground-breaking arrangement for Sandra Bland which has never before been seen in the legal system. If she handed over $5,000 they'd let her out of jail. I think they called it "bail" or something. What do I know though.

You do know when you pay bail you are released from custody immediately. Do you know she was actively waiting for bail to be posted? How? The $5,000 is also not bail. It is the bond to be paid that would be refunded at court. The bail is the 10% paid to the bondsman i.e. the $500 which is not refundable so the bondsman can post the $5,000 for her.

Our bail system is broken and needs reforming for sure. However, the point being we are unaware of her actually having access to that $500 or anyone with the urgency to bail her out. So once again you are speculating. By all accounts the family was struggling to raise fucking $500 (which shows the kind of world we fucking live in) and so Bland was not certain when bail would be posted. She may have been waiting but she had no certainty when or if it would be. So your assertion that she knew she'd be out in a couple of days is nonsense.

Weaver wrote:People who are depressed, particularly those who are suicidally depressed, frequently don't reveal it in any significant manner, or express that they've given up hope.

Weaver wrote:The simple fact is that jail is a depressing and depressive environment, and that it is not beyond reason that someone in jail for a few days could exacerbate existing depression to become more suicidal - and that could push them to actual suicidal acts.

We have to be careful with language. For example, it's depressing to see other posters getting angry and personal for no justifiable reason but it doesn't make me want to kill myself. Probably. Of course I can't say for certain what you'll do next or how I might react to that.

This right here shows you know absolutely next to fucking nothing about depression, anxiety or suicide.

We're talking specifically about suicide and mental illness not simply being angry, frustrated or scared. It's possible that her mental state deteriorated in a very short space of time in response to confinement which she knew to be temporary but it doesn't seem likely, even with a history of depression. It's possible that if this did happen she might not have displayed any signs but it's not very likely. This isn't a slow build-up type of event but a sudden trauma.

1) Suicides don't have to be a build-up reaction. Many suicides are NOT BUILD UP REACTIONS. They are sudden and out of the blue and only in the irony of hindsight can people actually piece together maybe something was wrong, but even then it is near impossible to catch unless you actively look for it. As Purplerat correctly asserted if suicidal thoughts are so easy to catch than why so many of them? Or are you just special and enlightened?

2) YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT HER MENTAL STATE IS!!!!!!!

My fucking god the amount of drivel you are posting on this subject matter is so stupid my brain feels like it is leaking.

My mother suffers from numerous anxiety disorders, depression, and self-harm thoughts. Suicide is a fucking nightmarish reality for me that I have to be careful of what I say and do around my mom because I can very well find myself without a mother. If I was not concerned with privacy issues I would gladly give you a recording of the phone call she had with my brother just the other night. She was happy, pleasant, enjoying life, etc. despite the fact that she had just received news that her food stamps were being reduced and we would be struggling to pay for food. She had just spent the minutes prior to that phone call crying and shrieking at the walls. But could you tell from the phone call? Nope. She didn't want my brother to worry.

There is no fucking way through the recordings we have of her that you can derive her current mental state. No fucking way. Unless you are some magic shrink.

If you roll the dice often enough edge cases do happen of course but at this point in time the question of murder or some kind of maltreatment is still very much alive.

No. In all honesty it is not. Maltreatment is not exclusive to murder though. We know she was maltreated in the jail. We know her situation is one giant fuck up of the justice system. But murder? There is no strong compelling reason to suspect murder at this point. Until more evidence is revealed all current evidence is pointing towards suicide.

Weaver wrote:

Shrunk wrote:

mcgruff wrote:

Shrunk wrote:The suicides that have happened in my practice (fortunately few) have usually been people who showed "no indications of risk." For obvious reasons: If they showed indications of risk, I would have taken the appropriate actions to prevent it.

But what about this specific case? Can we say nothing at all?

It could be argued that the suicide was completely unconnected to her imprisonment. I mention that only because technically it is an option.

Alternatively confinement did drive her to suicide - and in a very short space of time. There has to be a process of some kind to take her from A to B and it has to be something which would not display itself in the phone call. What could that be? How often do people kill themselves after only a few days in jail when they know they will be getting out in just a few more?

Good questions. I don't know the answers, but they may exist. I was mainly responding to the suggestion that the fact that she showed no clear indications of suicide risk indicated that she was likely murdered.

The autopsy report notes multiple parallel healed incisions, approximately 3 months old, on one forearm - this is highly indicative of depressive / suicidal behaviors. I think it is much more likely than not that this was indeed a suicide, albeit a completely unnecessary one (not that any are ever necessary) due to false imprisonment and incompetent medical care after being found.

Self harm and suicide are two different principles. One does not predict the other, excepting accidentally going too far.

Willie71 wrote:

Weaver wrote:

Shrunk wrote:

mcgruff wrote:

But what about this specific case? Can we say nothing at all?

It could be argued that the suicide was completely unconnected to her imprisonment. I mention that only because technically it is an option.

Alternatively confinement did drive her to suicide - and in a very short space of time. There has to be a process of some kind to take her from A to B and it has to be something which would not display itself in the phone call. What could that be? How often do people kill themselves after only a few days in jail when they know they will be getting out in just a few more?

Good questions. I don't know the answers, but they may exist. I was mainly responding to the suggestion that the fact that she showed no clear indications of suicide risk indicated that she was likely murdered.

The autopsy report notes multiple parallel healed incisions, approximately 3 months old, on one forearm - this is highly indicative of depressive / suicidal behaviors. I think it is much more likely than not that this was indeed a suicide, albeit a completely unnecessary one (not that any are ever necessary) due to false imprisonment and incompetent medical care after being found.

Self harm and suicide are two different principles. One does not predict the other, excepting accidentally going too far.

Of course not. However, with no knowledge of any previous suicide attempts or self-harm attempts we cannot know for certain what those parallel healed incisions may have been. For all we know they could have been a cooking accident. That being said, it does make the case for suicide more fleshed out than previous.

Willie71 wrote:

Weaver wrote:

Shrunk wrote:

mcgruff wrote:

But what about this specific case? Can we say nothing at all?

It could be argued that the suicide was completely unconnected to her imprisonment. I mention that only because technically it is an option.

Alternatively confinement did drive her to suicide - and in a very short space of time. There has to be a process of some kind to take her from A to B and it has to be something which would not display itself in the phone call. What could that be? How often do people kill themselves after only a few days in jail when they know they will be getting out in just a few more?

Good questions. I don't know the answers, but they may exist. I was mainly responding to the suggestion that the fact that she showed no clear indications of suicide risk indicated that she was likely murdered.

The autopsy report notes multiple parallel healed incisions, approximately 3 months old, on one forearm - this is highly indicative of depressive / suicidal behaviors. I think it is much more likely than not that this was indeed a suicide, albeit a completely unnecessary one (not that any are ever necessary) due to false imprisonment and incompetent medical care after being found.

Self harm and suicide are two different principles. One does not predict the other, excepting accidentally going too far.

True, but it counters the absurdly baseless assertion from several in this thread that she was emotional sound and had no mental health issues.

This shit needs to stop! And by that I mean this blaming police for everything that happens when a black person comes to harm while committing a crime or resisting a police officer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Michael Brown was just an innocent black teenager and Sandra Bland was a sweet, kind black woman that was arrested for not signaling a lane change. Michael Brown never shoplifted those cigars and manhandle the clerk that tried to stop him, and Sandra Bland only acted like a polite citizen when pulled over. It's not like she swore at the police officer, refused to do what he told her to do, and called the police officer every insulting name she could come up with.

Oh, but wait, there is a video of Sandra Bland doing just that. Not only that but a video that shows that the officer was only going to give her a warning, just as he had the traffic stop before Sandra Bland. Go ahead and watch the uncut dashcam video.



Did you watch it? If so, can you imagine what would happen to anyone acting like that at a traffic stop? I can imagine it. I can imagine what would happen to me or anyone else. We'd find our asses in jail charged with resisting arrest and assault of a police officer.

People need to wake up. Michael Brown was not shot to death for walking in the middle of the street and Sandra Bland was not put in Jail for failure to signal. He is dead and she was arrested for what they did and not who they were.

And Sandra Bland is dead by her own hand. It's clear to me, and should be for anyone else, that from that dashcam video she was not acting rationally, and from her own video blog just a few months earlier she was dealing with depression. But of course her friends and family are there to testify that Sandra would never do such a thing as kill herself in jail because she was bright and bubbly with a positive attitude. Then they line up to file civil law suits.

She was part of the "Black Lives Matter" movement and no one she knows wonders at the coincidence of her dying by apparent suicide in jail?

What a grand statement for a woman suffering from depression and delusions of oppression and delusions of grandeur to make.

Go ahead and watch the first 30 minutes of the dashcam video and tell me that Sandra Bland didn't deserve the treatment she got from the police officer. Go ahead, come on, I'd like to hear the excuses for her behavior, and how the polite police officer deserved the abuse and resistance that he received from Sandra Bland while he was trying to issue her a warning ticket.

Oldskeptic wrote:It's clear to me, and should be for anyone else, that from that dashcam video she was not acting rationally

It sure as hell isn't clear to me.

He asked her what was wrong, she answered him, and it appears he didn't like the answer. His reaction was not rational. He looked for something else to pick on her for, and escalated the situation beyond all common sense.

She was as pissed as all hell, and I don't blame her. Her reaction was - if perhaps not the most sensible when faced with such unwarranted provocation from an officer - perfectly understandable and not in the least irrational.

OS
You are conflating two different situations.

I tend to agree with Sandra Bland commiting suicide - that said police interaction with blacks in the US leaves much to be desired to put it mildly and automatically sets up a confrontation ( carding in Toronto for instance )

In the case of Michael Brown and others....it's excessive use of force by police on black people.
Case in point
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/30/us/ohio-s ... index.html

In too many cases police cultures are rife with bigotry and abuse of power and flat out corruption and extortion.
Apologetics for police brutality is misguided as is your conflating Sandra Bland and Michael Brown .....that seriously puts you in a very poor light.

Had you stuck to commenting on Sandra Bland, you had a post worthy of consideeration.

Comparing it to Michael Brown.....?? Lost all cred....

Oldskeptic wrote:
Go ahead and watch the first 30 minutes of the dashcam video and tell me that Sandra Bland didn't deserve the treatment she got from the police officer. Go ahead, come on, I'd like to hear the excuses for her behavior, and how the polite police officer deserved the abuse and resistance that he received from Sandra Bland while he was trying to issue her a warning ticket.

There was no abuse or resistance to the officer issuing a ticket.

Briton wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:
Go ahead and watch the first 30 minutes of the dashcam video and tell me that Sandra Bland didn't deserve the treatment she got from the police officer. Go ahead, come on, I'd like to hear the excuses for her behavior, and how the polite police officer deserved the abuse and resistance that he received from Sandra Bland while he was trying to issue her a warning ticket.

There was no abuse or resistance to the officer issuing a ticket.

Oh, I don't know. She did call him a pussy.

Macdoc wrote:OS
You are conflating two different situations.

I tend to agree with Sandra Bland commiting suicide - that said police interaction with blacks in the US leaves much to be desired to put it mildly and automatically sets up a confrontation ( carding in Toronto for instance )

Confrontation? Did you watch the video I posted? The cop gave a warning to the person just before pulling over Bland and was very polite about it. He was polite to bland and was only going to give her a warning. If you think the cop started the confrontation then we weren't watching the same video. The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force. He asked politely for her to put her cigarette out and she refused. She may have the right to smoke in her own car, but she didn't have the right to make him breathe her smoke while he was talking to her. A police officer has the right to ask someone at a traffic stop to get out of their car. She refused and resisted.

In the case of Michael Brown and others....it's excessive use of force by police on black people.
Case in point
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/30/us/ohio-s ... index.html

Yeah, CNN sure does know how to spin a story.

In too many cases police cultures are rife with bigotry and abuse of power and flat out corruption and extortion.
Apologetics for police brutality is misguided as is your conflating Sandra Bland and Michael Brown .....that seriously puts you in a very poor light.

I'll take that light over the bullshit that is swirling around.

Had you stuck to commenting on Sandra Bland, you had a post worthy of consideeration.

Comparing it to Michael Brown.....?? Lost all cred....

It's all part of the same hysteria going on. People behaving badly and when something bad comes of it it's the fault of the police simply by virtue of the person being black.

Oldskeptic wrote: The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force.

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Briton wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:
Go ahead and watch the first 30 minutes of the dashcam video and tell me that Sandra Bland didn't deserve the treatment she got from the police officer. Go ahead, come on, I'd like to hear the excuses for her behavior, and how the polite police officer deserved the abuse and resistance that he received from Sandra Bland while he was trying to issue her a warning ticket.

There was no abuse or resistance to the officer issuing a ticket.

He wasn't giving her a ticket, he was trying to issue her a written warning.

But of course there was no verbal abuse and kicking him in the shins can't be called abuse, why? And there was no resistance getting her out of the car and the cop didn't have to chase her around telling her to stand still, and of course refusing to turn around and put her hands behind her back wasn't resisting arrest.

I dare anyone to act like Bland did if they're pulled over by a cop. I don't care who you are the cop is not going to be all sweet and nice about, and your ass is going to land in jail.

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote: The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force.

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Yeah, well I don't know where you live, but go ahead and try acting like Bland did with one of your cops and see what happens. Try out little compliments like asshole and mother fucking pussy on them, let me know how that works out for you.

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:It's clear to me, and should be for anyone else, that from that dashcam video she was not acting rationally

It sure as hell isn't clear to me.

He asked her what was wrong, she answered him, and it appears he didn't like the answer. His reaction was not rational. He looked for something else to pick on her for, and escalated the situation beyond all common sense.

She was as pissed as all hell, and I don't blame her. Her reaction was - if perhaps not the most sensible when faced with such unwarranted provocation from an officer - perfectly understandable and not in the least irrational.

One might also observe that all this happened after the cop issued the written caution.

At which point the traffic stop, legally speaking, was over and it was just a cop talking to a citizen. He'd stopped her for a valid reason, but he chose to deal with that by issuing a warning. At that point, the traffic stop was over and at no point during it did the officer see a need for Bland to exit the vehicle. If he'd ordered Bland out of the car during the stop, it would have been entirely legal. Cops have that power. It's a valid stop. The officer has good reason to maintain complete control over any traffic stop and the courts have supported this. There is nothing that has been presented that indicates some threat presented itself between the issuing of the written warning and the order to leave the car.

Briton wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:
Go ahead and watch the first 30 minutes of the dashcam video and tell me that Sandra Bland didn't deserve the treatment she got from the police officer. Go ahead, come on, I'd like to hear the excuses for her behavior, and how the polite police officer deserved the abuse and resistance that he received from Sandra Bland while he was trying to issue her a warning ticket.

There was no abuse or resistance to the officer issuing a ticket.

Oldskeptic wrote:He wasn't giving her a ticket, he was trying to issue her a written warning.

You just said he was trying to issue her with a (warning) ticket.

Oldskeptic wrote:
But of course there was no verbal abuse and kicking him in the shins can't be called abuse...

There wasn't any of that before he immediately escalated the situation because she lawfully pointed out she didn't have to put her cigarette out (was uppity). What you say about the 'resistance that he received from Sandra Bland while he was trying to issue her a warning ticket' is just bullshit.

Do you think she was within her rights to point out that she didn't have to acquiesce to his request to put her cigarette out?

Oldskeptic wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote: The cop had every right and a responsibility to treat Bland's belligerence and resistance with sternness and force.

I didn't realise the US was an authoritarian regime.

Yeah, well I don't know where you live, but go ahead and try acting like Bland did with one of your cops and see what happens. Try out little compliments like asshole and mother fucking pussy on them, let me know how that works out for you.

I'd have trouble complying with your instructions here, because I'm damned sure one of our 'cops' would never threaten to drag me out of my car during a stop for a traffic violation.

As for the compliments, they happened precisely because he was acting like an asshole.

That you think his behaviour was warranted, and that he actually had a 'responsibility' to use force is sickening.

You said that she behaved irrationally. Please tell us what she did or said that was irrational.

Well in light of all the cases of police abuse acting angry or frustrated at a cop is a pretty stupid thing to do no matter how justified said anger or frustration may be.

Again I will say it as I have said it in other police threads. If a cop pulls you over and you are annoyed at it stomachs your annoyance and be polite and courteous and complying unless the cop asks you to do something illegal such as strip, etc.

A cop has all legal authority to get you out of a motor vehicle on the road. If a cop asks you to get out of the car you don't refuse, you ask am I being detained? If not than you ask why am I not free to go? You don't huff and puff. If you get out of the car and the cop arrests you than you immediately request a lawyer (even if you cannot pay) and you remain silent until you get to jail.

Once you talk to your lawyer and are released from jail THAN do you fight. When you go to court you present the evidence that the cop was being unreasonable and belligerent. You present the evidence that you complied with orders even ones as trivial as putting out a cigarette.

While this most certainly doesn't excuse cops from being assholes it does prevent more people from being abused by assholish cops. So was Sandra Bland being unreasonable? No, but her actions were not very wise and she should have known it.

Still the cops fault though.