Understanding the Violence in Islam

Thomas Eshuis · **#61** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 21, 2015 6:59 pm

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:[Are you acting deliberately obtuse, or whar?

Are you?

quas wrote:
Care to adress thr point being made?

What point?

That people perceiving something =/= that something actually occuring.
See:

Thomas Eshuis · **#62** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 21, 2015 7:01 pm

Peter Brown wrote:No he is being his usual self, spouting nonsense to look good because he hasn't got a clue what he is talking about.

Seriosuly Peter Brown stuff the personal attacks.
Especially when they're baseless nonsense like this.
You've failed to adress my points, let alone demonstrate I don't know what I'm talking about.
All you're doing is demonstrating you cannot adress the points I've made and therefore seek to dismiss me out of hand by blindly and baselessly accusing me of ignorance.

Peter Brown · **#63** by **Peter Brown** » Sep 21, 2015 8:23 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:No he is being his usual self, spouting nonsense to look good because he hasn't got a clue what he is talking about.

Seriosuly Peter Brown stuff the personal attacks.
Especially when they're baseless nonsense like this.
You've failed to adress my points, let alone demonstrate I don't know what I'm talking about.
All you're doing is demonstrating you cannot adress the points I've made and therefore seek to dismiss me out of hand by blindly and baselessly accusing me of ignorance.

but if you are going to make points like Islamic terrorism isn't religious violence, or the current year of overwhelming Islamic acts of terrorism against all other acts of terror is not evidence. Well quite frankly telling you so is not making s personal attack and acquiring others is plain dishonesty and perverting the topic in an undignified way through ignorance of the topic to promote an already concluded position by you. Which appears to be all religions are equally bad so no religion is actually worse. A ludicrous position to hold.

When you hold that sort of mindset you don't have any questions worth answering more than I have done so already. Instead you need to leave this place and go study the situation for yourself, as only you can leave the bubble you've surrounded yourself in.

Thomas Eshuis · **#64** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 22, 2015 4:29 am

Peter Brown wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:No he is being his usual self, spouting nonsense to look good because he hasn't got a clue what he is talking about.

Seriosuly Peter Brown stuff the personal attacks.
Especially when they're baseless nonsense like this.
You've failed to adress my points, let alone demonstrate I don't know what I'm talking about.
All you're doing is demonstrating you cannot adress the points I've made and therefore seek to dismiss me out of hand by blindly and baselessly accusing me of ignorance.

but if you are going to make points like Islamic terrorism isn't religious violence,

Stop lying. I've done no such thing.

Peter Brown wrote: or the current year of overwhelming Islamic acts of terrorism against all other acts of terror is not evidence.

Not sufficient evidence, to claim Islam is inherently (more) violent than other religions.
Stop twisting my words Peter Brown.

Peter Brown wrote: Well quite frankly telling you so is not making s personal attack

It is a dishonest and baseless accusation.
Firstly because I have not made the claims you attribute to me above, making it a straw-man and secondly, you have not demonstrated me to be wrong or ignorant.
Blindly asserting it doens't make it so.

Peter Brown wrote: and acquiring others is plain dishonesty and perverting the topic in an undignified way through ignorance of the topic to promote an already concluded position by you.

A perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
And this has been explained to you repeatedly Peter Brown, no-one is responsible for your posting behaviour, except yourself.
You don't get to lie, misrepresent and personally attack other members, period. Regardless of what those other members do, or you make up what they do.

Peter Brown wrote: Which appears to be all religions are equally bad so no religion is actually worse. A ludicrous position to hold.

Also another fucking lie. I've specifically stated I do not consider Islam and Christianity the same.
All I've done is point out the video in the OP is hypocritical and your continued assertion that Islam is inherently and more violent than other religions is unsubstantiated.

Peter Brown wrote:When you hold that sort of mindset you don't have any questions worth answering more than I have done so already. Instead you need to leave this place and go study the situation for yourself, as only you can leave the bubble you've surrounded yourself in.

When you consistently have to lie about and make up your interlocutors claims and positions, all you're doing is demonstrating you've not the slightest interest in an honest and rational discussion. All you're doing is demonstrating how much your position is based on bigotry and that you cannot defend your claims and therefore have to resort to attacking your interlocutors through both lies and personal attacks. :naughty:

quas · **#65** by **quas** » Sep 22, 2015 5:32 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:That people perceiving something =/= that something actually occuring.
See:

Irrelevant. Fear of zombies is a real concern? Since when?

Thomas Eshuis · **#66** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 22, 2015 5:34 am

quas wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:That people perceiving something =/= that something actually occuring.
See:

Irrelevant. Fear of zombies is a real concern? Since when?

The point is that people might feel like Muslims have a monopoly on violence, doesn't mean or prove it's actually the case.

quas · **#67** by **quas** » Sep 22, 2015 5:40 am

Post #45 which have you disagreeing with the term "monoploy", implies that you agree with the term "over represented". In so doing, you acknowledged that this perception exists, even within you.

Thomas Eshuis · **#68** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 22, 2015 5:58 am

quas wrote:Post #45 which have you disagreeing with the term "monoploy", implies that you agree with the term "over represented". In so doing, you acknowledged that this perception exists, even within you.

Monopoly =/= overrepresented.
I agree that it's overrepresented in the sense that it get's reported and discussed more frequently and disproportionately than other forms of violence. More-over things get labelled Islamic violence, which either have very little to do with Islam, or are actually better explained from the socio-economic circumstances of the area, with Islam merely being the local religious excuse.

Peter Brown · **#69** by **Peter Brown** » Sep 22, 2015 9:50 am

I don't think I am remotely lying. If I was suggesting the increased rates of Muslims raping women in Norway was a sign of religious violence then you would have cause to disagree. There is no link in the Qur'an, only a cultural link evolved from the Qur'an that does put female slaves as permisible rape targets and puts women as 1 degree below men and puts women's roles in Allahs world as breeder in the home and the man the provider and sexually to be pleased by the wife at all times.

Rape is violence

But I'm not, I have used terrorism as the aspect directly tied to the religion, which it is, as terrorism is Jihad, it is part of a holy war. The killing civilians is regarded as acceptable in the Qur'an and hadiths

Terrorism is violence

This is why I am not lying, and why you are ignorant on the subject and spreading disinformation to defend your position. Because you will not acknowledge these simple links between what is written in a religious book and when these people copy what is written to some very disgusting degrees of violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_(non-state)_terrorist_incidents

Peter Brown · **#70** by **Peter Brown** » Sep 22, 2015 11:49 am

If all religions are equal, let all wait to see several video clips of practitioners from different religions ranting how it is gods stated will will to be violent to others shall we?

clips that skip the commentary by Isaac and then show Muslims words being translated by the Masked Arab.
https://youtu.be/X4ddS8s-bNQ?t=2m24s
https://youtu.be/aUPmPKT52fI?t=3m18s

Thomas Eshuis · **#71** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 22, 2015 2:11 pm

Peter Brown wrote:I don't think I am remotely lying.

Irrelevant, you demonstrably are.
Either about having read my posts, or lying about the contents of said post, otherwise you would not be attributing the things you're attributing with.

Peter Brown wrote: If I was suggesting the increased rates of Muslims raping women in Norway was a sign of religious violence then you would have cause to disagree. There is no link in the Qur'an, only a cultural link evolved from the Qur'an that does put female slaves as permisible rape targets and puts women as 1 degree below men and puts women's roles in Allahs world as breeder in the home and the man the provider and sexually to be pleased by the wife at all times.

Rape is violence

But I'm not, I have used terrorism as the aspect directly tied to the religion, which it is, as terrorism is Jihad, it is part of a holy war. The killing civilians is regarded as acceptable in the Qur'an and hadiths

Ignoring pesky contradicting facts won't make them go away Peter Brown.
Jihad =/= terrorism or holy war, it's spiritual struggle.

Peter Brown wrote:
Terrorism is violence

This is why I am not lying,

Correct, you're lying by constantly attributing claims and positions to me that I either have not expressed or even stated I do not hold.
You're also lying by constantly and baselessly accusing me of ignorance.

Peter Brown wrote: and why you are ignorant on the subject and spreading disinformation to defend your position.

Complete counterfactual horseshit.
The only expressing ignorant black and white thinking is you Peter Brown. The only one mindlessly regurgitating the same already refuted crap is you, not me.

Peter Brown wrote: Because you will not acknowledge these simple links between what is written in a religious book and when these people copy what is written to some very disgusting degrees of violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_(non-state)_terrorist_incidents

Stop lying. I never denied it. I merely pointed out that it is completely asinine to create a No True Scotsman out of fundamentalist terrorist groups.

Thomas Eshuis · **#72** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 22, 2015 2:12 pm

Peter Brown wrote:

If all religions are equal, let all wait to see several video clips of practitioners from different religions ranting how it is gods stated will will to be violent to others shall we?

Nope. Fuck that straw-man.
Stop with this disengenuous shit Peter Brown.

Peter Brown · **#73** by **Peter Brown** » Sep 22, 2015 3:29 pm

Jihad =/= terrorism or holy war, it's spiritual struggle.

it means struggle internal AND external. the external part can be where to find the money to give to charity... and it can also be the killing of non Muslims, the seizure and confiscation of their lands and property to increase the propagation of Islam

It is that last underlined part you are in denial over, the part you can not admit to, the part that quite honestly is the cause of all the violence in the Muslim world.

Some say it has to happen to them before they alter their baseless opinion. How many people in the Netherlands will have to be abused by the Islamic memes before you come back to reality?

Thomas Eshuis · **#74** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 22, 2015 5:25 pm

Peter Brown wrote:Jihad =/= terrorism or holy war, it's spiritual struggle.

it means struggle internal AND external.

It means any struggle which challenges your spiritual well being and/or faith.
It doesn't mean to kill unbelievers or wage a holy war.

Peter Brown wrote: the external part can be where to find the money to give to charity... and it can also be the killing of non Muslims, the seizure and confiscation of their lands and property to increase the propagation of Islam

That's how some Muslims interpet it. It's not the One True Definition.

Peter Brown wrote:It is that last underlined part you are in denial over,

False, stop making stuff up about me Peter Brown.

Peter Brown wrote: the part you can not admit to

I cannot admit things that are false or fallacious.
Jihad =/= holy war like you keep asserting.

Peter Brown wrote:
, the part that quite honestly is the cause of all the violence in the Muslim world.

More rectally extracted nonsense.
Demonstrate that this is true Peter Brown, don't just assert this.

Peter Brown wrote:
Some say it has to happen to them before they alter their baseless opinion. How many people in the Netherlands will have to be abused by the Islamic memes before you come back to reality?

How much more word salad, lies and other dishonest memes are you going to throw out, before you'll start adressing the facts and the points being made?

Peter Brown · **#75** by **Peter Brown** » Sep 22, 2015 8:02 pm

It doesn't mean to kill unbelievers or wage a holy war.

it certainly does include war and killing unbelievers, it is fascinating how you constantly avoid accepting what the Qur'an say, just as fascinating as how some voting republicans climate deny, all the facts are open for all to see and yet....

and I've given you all the proof you need, just like many here have given all the proof needed to demonstrate evolution is true, climate change is happening and every debunking on every false belief out there. And here you are, steadfast as the creationists, the climate deniers, the truthers, the birthers, utterly fascinating aren't you.

Sendraks · **#76** by **Sendraks** » Sep 23, 2015 9:03 am

Peter Brown wrote:it certainly does include war and killing unbelievers,

No, you were discussing what Jihad means. Thomas gave you the definition, but then you dishonestly shift the focus of the discussion into the broader spectrum of what some extremist groups are doing.

[quote="Peter Brown";p="2302303"] it is fascinating how you constantly avoid accepting what the Qur'an say, just as fascinating as how some voting republicans climate deny, all the facts are open for all to see and yet....[?quote]

Its fascinating the lengths that you are prepared to go to avoid having an honest discussion, the lengths you go to misrepresent what others have said, in order to avoid actually dealing with anything that conflicts with your world view.

Peter Brown · **#77** by **Peter Brown** » Sep 23, 2015 9:14 am

He gave a partial definition, one not going into the full definition backed up in the Qur'an and Hadiths, which is what the original video demonstrates by linking the actual quotes for the audience.

So explain why I'm going to great lengths to avoid an honest discussion when I'm the one listing videos with the quotes, the websites with the terrorist acts, and even terrorists saying they died for Allah.

I'm not the one denying what Islam does to these devout followers, in fact I say anyone who says my views are incorrect are the ones having problems dealing with the situation. We know this is quite possible, as I talked of other groups who deny anything that interrupts their bubble-vision.

I'm surprised anybody here thinks Islam is not directly responsible for what these people have done.
As a new defender, why do you side in the belief Islam is not responsible? Do you have the links and facts which so far a conspicuous by their absence that all religions are the same in the level of violence they promote?

Thomas Eshuis · **#78** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 23, 2015 9:17 am

Peter Brown wrote:He gave a partial definition, one not going into the full definition backed up in the Qur'an and Hadiths, which is what the original video demonstrates by linking the actual quotes for the audience.

False.
I did give a full definition. The video adds additional interpretation, it doesn't actually change the definition itself.

Peter Brown wrote:So explain why I'm going to great lengths to avoid an honest discussion when I'm the one listing videos with the quotes, the websites with the terrorist acts, and even terrorists saying they died for Allah.

Because you refuse to adress the facts and points raised by your interlocutors, keep making counterfactual assertions, keep lying about and making up your interlocutors positions and just about the only videos you post are from polemicists and Islamophobes.
Oh and random Arabic newscasts based on very flawed polling.

Peter Brown wrote:I'm not the one denying what Islam does to these devout followers,

Correct, just creating a straw-man and No True Scotsman fallacy.

Peter Brown wrote: in fact I say anyone who says my views are incorrect are the ones having problems dealing with the situation. We know this is quite possible, as I talked of other groups who deny anything that interrupts their bubble-vision.

Oh look, more pot calling the kettle black. :roll:

Thomas Eshuis · **#79** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Sep 23, 2015 9:21 am

Sendraks wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:it certainly does include war and killing unbelievers,

No, you were discussing what Jihad means. Thomas gave you the definition, but then you dishonestly shift the focus of the discussion into the broader spectrum of what some extremist groups are doing.

Peter Brown wrote: it is fascinating how you constantly avoid accepting what the Qur'an say, just as fascinating as how some voting republicans climate deny, all the facts are open for all to see and yet....[?quote]

Its fascinating the lengths that you are prepared to go to avoid having an honest discussion, the lengths you go to misrepresent what others have said, in order to avoid actually dealing with anything that conflicts with your world view.

Sendraks · **#80** by **Sendraks** » Sep 23, 2015 9:37 am

Peter Brown wrote:So explain why I'm going to great lengths to avoid an honest discussion when I'm the one listing videos with the quotes, the websites with the terrorist acts, and even terrorists saying they died for Allah.

Because you're not interested in engaging with anything that conflicts with your point of view. Nothing. At no point in this thread or any other thread, have you showed any inclination to meet anyone else even remotely halfway. You're not even remotely prepared to entertain the notion that maybe, just maybe, your views might be based on a faulty premise.

Instead, everyone is wrong and you will do absolutely anything to reinforce that view to yourself.

Understanding the Violence in Islam

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