UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#141  Postby Sendraks » Jan 09, 2016 3:51 pm

Another thing to consider is that flood defences are built around the most likely scenarios rather than the least. If you make flood defences in response to a 150 year interval storm, that is an eminently sensible thing to do. If you then get hit by a 250 year interval storm or worse, well that is bad luck and not something that could have been planned for.

It is entirely justifiable for those responsible for funding to say, "well, we've had a 150 interval storm, there really isnn't much cause to fund protections against a 250 year interval." Of course, more frequent long interval storms could simply changes the interval and how bad we can expect things to be within a given timeframe.

Getting two 150 year interval storms on the trot, doesn't necessarily mean that level of indundation becomes a 75 year interval, because we might not see another storm of that magnitude for another 150 years.

Scot is right that you need national oversight of local plans and central provision of information on what sort of interval storms different areas have had can be very useful for local planning.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#142  Postby Macdoc » Jan 09, 2016 6:07 pm

when you have climate models predicting more intensive storms ( not more frequent ) AND a clear history in the past 20 years of that being born out....historical frequency is not a good guide.

As the governor of a mid-west state quipped...a single 100 year storm we can accept ....3 of them in 12 years ??!!! something else is going on.

I'm certain Brits in certain areas would concur.
Last edited by Macdoc on Jan 09, 2016 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#143  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 09, 2016 6:09 pm

Macdoc wrote:when you have climate models predicting more intensive storms ( not more frequent ) AND a clear history in the past 20 years of that being born out....historical frequency is not a good guide.

As the governor of a mid-west state quipped...a single 100 year storm we can accept ....3 of them in 12 years ??!!! something else is going on.

I'm Brits in certain areas would concur.


Entirely agree. This notion of 100 or 250 year storms has proved to have validity. It should be dropped for the worst case scenario.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#144  Postby Macdoc » Jan 09, 2016 6:17 pm

Have or have not???
Not sure worst case as that becomes unaffordable and sometimes events prove out that the build is inadequate anyways.

The London Barrier is no where close to being adequate even for predicted changes in the next 90 years let alone worst case.

My contention is that moving vulnerable infrastructure to higher ground over time would be more cost effective in many areas.
Most major cities are running on major infrastructure ( sewage etc ) that is a century old.

UK has high ground unlike the Netherlands so moving instead of defending a somewhat uncertain scale of threat may in many cases prove the better route.

My GF and I are already to some degree "climate refugees" in that we don't see being able to stay in Cairns and still have flood insurance so we are moving. We are on a 30 year planning period.
Cities need to be on century level.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#145  Postby Sendraks » Jan 09, 2016 6:32 pm

Macdoc wrote:The London Barrier is no where close to being adequate even for predicted changes in the next 90 years let alone worst case.


Indeed and its viability is already under review.

As for not "gambling" on flood defences, again I agree with Scot. Sadly we have a Government at present unwilling to not waste money on vanity projects like Trident and divert those billions to actually protecting the country in a meaningful way.

If only we had a politician leading a party who was prepared to do such a thing.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#146  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 10, 2016 12:35 pm

Yep defence for many means something completely different. Pay out fortunes for something has almost a nil chance of happening but paying for adequate defences for something that is going to happen? You must be joking.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#147  Postby Macdoc » Jan 16, 2016 1:34 pm

UK rains broke river flow record and climate change is to blame

Image

More water flowed out of UK rivers into the ocean during one day last month than ever before.

As Storm Desmond drenched northern England on 5 December, rivers across the country discharged a third more water than the previous maximum, according to new data released by the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology (CEH).

The news comes a day after a study found that unusually high rainfall was made between 50 and 75 per cent more likely by climate change.

Three major storms – Desmond, Eva and Frank – tracked across Britain during December, creating what CEH called “extraordinary” hydrological conditions. They were largely responsible for the country’s wettest month since records began in 1910.

On Honiston Pass in Cumbria, Desmond delivered more rain in 24 hours than ever previously seen anywhere in the country – 34.1 centimetres. As a result, many large river catchments in northern Britain recorded their highest every peak flows, says Jamie Hannaford, who heads hydrology monitoring at the CEH.

Throughout December, several major rivers exceeded previous record flows. The peak records flows on the Tyne, Lune and Eden during Storm Desmond, each at around 1700 cubic metres a second, were the three highest flows ever recorded on rivers in England and Wales, and more than 30 times the rivers’ respective average flows, says the CEH. As these and other rivers breached their banks, some 16,000 properties flooded.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... -to-blame/
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#148  Postby Macdoc » Feb 03, 2016 4:43 am

Good to see scientists are more confident in attribution..

Man-made climate change raised risk for English floods: study
The study also calculated that human-induced carbon emissions caused a 43-per-cent increase in the risk of the once-in-a-century rainfall event.

Image
Heavy precipitation events are becoming more frequent in England as increased moisture in the atmosphere leads to more rainfall. Here, a man pulls a boat carrying a neighbour in January 2014 in Yalding, England.
PETER MACDIARMID / GETTY IMAGES

By: Raveena Aulakh Environment, Published on Tue Feb 02 2016
Man-made climate change directly influenced the historic storms that battered southern England in the winter of 2013-2014, submerging parts of the country and causing more than $900 million in damages, says a new study by European scientists.
The study also calculated that human-induced carbon emissions caused a whopping 43-per-cent increase in the risk of the once-in-a-century rainfall event.
Published in the journal Nature Climate Change on Monday, the study comes on the heels of another series of destructive storms that hit England repeatedly last month, and again as recently as last week.
The study concluded the heightened risk for extreme rainfall in England was caused by an increase in the water-holding capacity of the atmosphere and an abnormal positioning of the jet stream, both of which are linked to climate change.


more http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/ ... study.html

That is 8 named storms since mid November....


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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#149  Postby ourview » Feb 04, 2016 2:52 pm

I'm waiting for storm Iblis.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#150  Postby Macdoc » Mar 28, 2016 3:00 pm

You missed it ...it's up to K now....Katie slams in at 105 mph...quite a record for the first 5 months of naming storms....

Some tales of trying to land pretty hair raising..

Storm Katie 2016: Flights cancelled amid 105mph winds
Blustery end to Easter weekend as dozens of flights cancelled or diverted in strong winds that bring down crane and cause hazardous driving conditions


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/weather ... ekend.html
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#151  Postby Macdoc » Dec 06, 2016 4:41 am

someone was claiming that it wasn't all that big a deal those storms in England last year....nothing unusual....etc

Well maybe rethink that notion.....

A new scientific review of the winter floods of 2015/2016 confirms that the event was one of the most extreme and severe hydrological events of the last century.

The new hydrological appraisal -- 'The Winter Floods of 2015/2016 in the UK', published on the first anniversary of Storm Desmond (December 5th), brings together both river flow and meteorological data in an analysis of the events that led to extensive river flooding in northern England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and parts of Wales over a three month period.

The study, carried out by scientists from the Centre for Ecology & Hydrology in collaboration with the British Hydrological Society recognises that the Winter 2015/2016 episode ranks alongside the floods of 1947 as one of the two largest flood events of the last 100 years at least.

Storm Desmond alone caused an estimated insurance bill of more than £1.3 billion when it struck on the 5th and 6th December last year.

he review also highlights that 16,000 properties in England were flooded during the three months of 'remarkably persistent and exceptionally mild cyclonic' activity which, along with Storm Desmond, included the major storms of Abigail, Frank and Gertrude.

Lead author Terry Marsh, from the Centre for Ecology & Hydrology, said, "'At a national scale the winter floods of 2015/16 were the most extreme on record.


more
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 090552.htm

but what do I know :roll:
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#152  Postby BlackBart » Dec 06, 2016 6:11 am

Who was claiming that?
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#153  Postby Macdoc » Dec 06, 2016 6:45 am

They know.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#154  Postby Fallible » Dec 06, 2016 6:54 am

I said that it had become the norm to have extreme weather over recent years, and I said this because it appeared that storms being named last year for the first time was being taken as a sign that we'd never seen extreme weather in the UK before. It was Abigail that I said wasn't anything much, which it wasn't here, NOT 'those storms in England last year' as a whole. See here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/general-chat/uk-gets-first-named-storm-abigail-t51059.html#p2334601

And here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/general-chat/uk-gets-first-named-storm-abigail-t51059.html#p2334738

I got told I was pretending bad weather doesn't happen here, that I was a 'storm troll' and that I held positions that Macdoc had just made up. Abigail, as you can tell from the A, was the first storm of that period, so it is rather an embellishment of the truth, shall we say, to claim that my comment was made in response to all the storms of that season. But then Macdoc can be seen clearly misrepresenting my comments through the thread, so this isn't surprising.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#155  Postby Fallible » Dec 06, 2016 9:04 am

Macdoc wrote:They know.


'You know who you are' is the sort of passive aggressive nonsense a headmaster would come out with when he wants to accuse a child of having transgressed in some way without having to be specific. When you behave the way you have in this thread and others, you do not get to act the disciplinarian. If you're going to misrepresent another member, at least have the balls to specify the target. Your previous unpleasantness was all but forgotten until you piped up with more of the same an entire year later. Just present your information without the deliberately provocative and dishonest editorialising, please.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#156  Postby Macdoc » Dec 23, 2016 10:33 pm

Round 2 Year 2 ....what horrid timing... :ill:

Storm Barbara causes power cuts on busiest day for Christmas travel
High winds leave thousands in Scotland without electricity as millions take to the roads amid rail engineering works


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ring-works

This storm is the one that is unfreezing the Arctic. Shortest day of the year and it's just about 0 C at the pole, :what:
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#157  Postby jamest » Dec 23, 2016 10:47 pm

Yeah Macdoc, you won't get any arguments from me on the global warming front. Apparently, it's going to be 13 degrees Celsius where I live in England on Xmas day. That's just wrong.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#158  Postby Macdoc » Dec 23, 2016 11:41 pm

Is that high or low...
High I guess... - meanwhile Siberia is setting record lows.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#159  Postby monkeyboy » Dec 24, 2016 12:00 am

Macdoc wrote:Is that high or low...
High I guess... - meanwhile Siberia is setting record lows.

Well we ain't getting a white Christmas (apart maybe for some bits of Northern mountainy bits of Scotland). It's warmer than its been through most of the last couple of months.
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Re: UK gets first named storm ...Abigail

#160  Postby jamest » Dec 24, 2016 12:10 am

Macdoc wrote:Is that high or low...
High I guess... - meanwhile Siberia is setting record lows.

You've been commenting heavily upon our British weather for the last year or so and don't know whether 13 Celcius for Xmas is high or low? Have a fuckin' word, squire. You just kinda blew it. :nono:
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