NineBerry wrote:No, that's like giving Gazans permission to retake control

And the Gazans elected Hamas.

Gawd wrote:

NineBerry wrote:Well, I would prefer, Hamas not having control over goods entering Gaza

Jeez, that's like giving permission to the Israelis to land grab.

No, no it isn't. Hint: Israel doesn't occupy Gaza but don't let that fact stop you from posting more lulz.

JustSayNoToVorderman wrote:

Hugin wrote:It seems to be a recurrent view here that Israel is like Nazi Germany.

If that is true, then were are the concentration camps for the Palestinians?

The entirety of the occupied territories and Gaza are one big concentration camp, in case you hadn't noticed.

verbal pocketplay wrote:and regarding the title of this thread, im curious why it is always comparisons to the nazi treatment of the jews (and gypsies and homosexuals and slavs) and never comparisons to the japanese treatment of the chinese in manchuria. the japanese policy during this time was just as vehemently racists and evil. it's always struck me as odd that japanese crimes in WWII dont register the way germany's crime against humanity do, and i think there is an undercurrent of racism to it

Generally I think it's to do with the theatre of war, Japan was mostly the the United States responsibility, whereas Australia, Canada, the UK and other allied forces were fighting mostly in Africa and Europe. And I guess America doesn't particularly like bringing up Japan anyway, as their internment of the Japanese, although certainly not as brutal as what the Japanese did is a bleak mark in their history books nonetheless.

Gawd wrote:

NineBerry wrote:No, that's like giving Gazans permission to retake control

And the Gazans elected Hamas.

Yeah, and the Germans elected Hitler.

Gawd wrote:

NineBerry wrote:Well, I would prefer, Hamas not having control over goods entering Gaza

Jeez, that's like giving permission to the Israelis to land grab.

He didn't say that he preferred Israel to have control over them.

For example, I'd personally prefer that Hamas' control over any incoming goods be limited to import duties, and that further distribution within Gaza be controlled by a free market. That doesn't mean I think the Israelis should reoccupy Gaza.

I also recognize that what I'd prefer may not be realistic in the short term, of course.

NineBerry wrote:

Gawd wrote:

NineBerry wrote:No, that's like giving Gazans permission to retake control

And the Gazans elected Hamas.

Yeah, and the Germans elected Hitler.

The Germans also make BMW's.

verbal pocketplay wrote:would you rather live as a jew in the third reich or as an arab irseali citizen today? i think the answer is obvious

It would be obvious to some, but definitely not to others.

Julia wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04687.html

excerpt:

Gazans readily admit they are not going hungry. But that, they say, is the wrong benchmark for assessing their quality of life. While Gaza has long been poor, the economy has completely crumbled over the past three years.

And you find this acceptable?

Well, it's hardly that.

verbal pocketplay wrote:and regarding the title of this thread, im curious why it is always comparisons to the nazi treatment of the jews (and gypsies and homosexuals and slavs) and never comparisons to the japanese treatment of the chinese in manchuria. the japanese policy during this time was just as vehemently racists and evil. it's always struck me as odd that japanese crimes in WWII dont register the way germany's crime against humanity do, and i think there is an undercurrent of racism to it

There is most certainly an undercurrent of racism there. I remember on Richard Dawkins forums, discussions of discrimination against Asians ended up with most of the nonasians approving of the discrimination.

However, there are also other factors. I think a much larger proportion of American Jews having ancestors who were refugees from the Germans before WWII than of American Chinese having ancestors who were refugees from the Japanese, for example.

Julia wrote:

Paul G wrote:

Julia wrote:

Paul G wrote:

NineBerry wrote:"Israel is a Jewish state" *hint* *hint*

Arabs don't join the military. Politicians asking to ban Arab parties and demanding loyality oaths. Different school curriculums for Jewish and Arab schools. ...

You mean Israel is tied to the Jewish identity!?

Gosh! I wonder why????

So, labelling non jews as different......

I've got to get out of this thread before I get myself banned. I'm just shocked at the simplistic lack of awareness I see here and find it incredibly maddening. Most of you really ARE no different from Gawd, you just find more palatable ways of phrasing things.

It's like no one here has any understanding of the fucking CONTEXT in which Israel came into being and in which it is now trying to survive.

The lot of you would be very happy, I'm sure, if all Jews could just disappear from this earth. They sure are just gosh-darned inconvenient!

Yeah that's it, we all hate Jews and everyone is out to criticise Israel

Gawd wrote:

Barry Cade wrote:
The argument I have with you is not about the relative worth of Jewish and Russian lives (excluding the fact that so many Russian Jews died during the war); it is about your apparent willingness to belittle such an extraordinary episode of genocide. I can see you are now trying to edge this into a "you obviously don't care about other victims of genocide" type rant, but it doesn't cut any ice, I'm afraid. Believe it or not, it is perfectly possible to remain appalled at the astonishing brutality and extent of the Nazi holocaust and still give a damn about the victims of less vile crimes. Like it is still possible for me to protest at Israel's murderous assault on the aid flotilla, despite the much more (Logically? Objectively?) substantial episodes of state-sanctioned murder perpetrated elsewhere in the world.

"Russian Jews"? Shouldn't you be calling them Soviets? Like the other tens of millions of Soviets that died?

And I don't think the "Jewish" (quotes for whether you want to use the ethnic and/or religious meaning or include whatever the hell people you consider to be Jewish instead of Soviet) holocaust is any more brutal than the Soviet holocaust.

Gawd, you are clearly struggling to divert attention from your completely indefensible attempts to label one of the greatest acts of industrialised genocide as "small potatoes". But a note on nomenclature, since you seem so obsessed with my use of the phrase "Russian Jews". Firstly, there is the small, if for you inconvenient, fact that many of the victims of the Nazi genocide happened to be Russian and Jewish. Hence Russian Jew. Or if you prefer, Jewish Russian. As far as the label "Soviet" goes, I have a problem with it, although I do use it from time to time for the sake of ease. My problem with the name "Soviet" is that the Stalinist regime was not based on soviets (workers' councils), but rather established itself on the basis that all organs of popular democracy were destroyed. As someone once pointed out, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republcs was remarkable in so far as it was not socialist, and had no soviets.

I am well aware that the Nazi holocaust took many, many non-Jewish people as its victims. The original inmates of concentration camps were socialists and trade unionists, for instance. The Nazis also considered 'Slavs' as subhuman, along with Roma gypsies.

And for the record, I would argue that there have been many acts of genocide perpetrated over the ages and that the Nazi holocaust — while it had unique features — was not in itself unprecedented or, sadly, the last of its kind. I have read, and agree with, Norman Finkelstein on the misuse of the Holocaust (Finkelstein's use of the capital H) as a stick with which to beat critics of Israel. But none of this would lead me to deliberately and provocatively label the deliberate and brutal slaughter of millions of people as "small potatoes". To do so requires a smallness of mind, and a meanness of spirit I hope never to possess.

Well Barry, you once again quote mine me. I didn't simply say the Jewish holocaust was "small potatoes", I said:

Gawd wrote:The "holocaust" was small potatoes compared to what happened in the Soviet Union and the tens of millions there that the Nazis enslaved and murdered.

Which is true. Get over it.

aspire1670 wrote:

Gawd wrote:

NineBerry wrote:Well, I would prefer, Hamas not having control over goods entering Gaza

Jeez, that's like giving permission to the Israelis to land grab.

No, no it isn't. Hint: Israel doesn't occupy Gaza but don't let that fact stop you from posting more lulz.

Under international law there are certain laws of war governing military occupation, including the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention.[20] The UN, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza's airspace, territorial waters and does not allow the movement or goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea.[4][5][6] Israel states that Gaza is no longer occupied, inasmuch as Israel does not exercise effective control or authority over any land or institutions in the Gaza Strip.[21][22] Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January, 2008: “Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement.”[23]

However, this has been disputed because Gaza does not belong to any sovereign state and because of Israel’s effective control of the borders of Gaza, including its long sea border. Immediately after Israel withdrew in 2005, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas stated, "the legal status of the areas slated for evacuation has not changed."[21] Soon after Palestinian American attorney Gregory Khalil said “Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water to enter or leave the Gaza Strip. Its troops may not be there … but it still restricts the ability for the Palestinian authority to exercise control.”[24] Human Rights Watch also contested that this ended the occupation.[25][26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Dispute_over_occupation_status

in addition to this, not only does Israel control borders, it refuses to accept democratically elected governments.

I actually served 3 years in the IDF unit designated to transfer goods and humanitarian supply into Gaza, and live in the most rocketed city in israel, and still prefer not to get into those Israel/Palestine threads.

InDeoRideo wrote:I actually served 3 years in the IDF unit designated to transfer goods and humanitarian supply into Gaza, and live in the most rocketed city in israel, and still prefer not to get into those Israel/Palestine threads.

Any chance you can round up some buddies and over throw your government?

Gawd wrote:Well Barry, you once again quote mine me. I didn't simply say the Jewish holocaust was "small potatoes", I said:

Gawd wrote:The "holocaust" was small potatoes compared to what happened in the Soviet Union and the tens of millions there that the Nazis enslaved and murdered.

Which is true. Get over it.

Actually, this is what I wrote in my original response to your ridiculous and provocative assertion:

Why have you put the holocaust in scare quotes? I am horrified that you could declare the deliberate slaughter of millions of Jews and other 'untermenschen' as "small potatoes", even if you do so as a comparison with another episode of mass slaughter.

But whatever. You have made your point: millions died in the camps, countless thousands were forced into ghettoes, many thousands were butchered by the Nazis' hirelings in central and eastern Europe, but you get to put the word holocaust in scare quotes and declare it "small potatoes". And you have the gall to start nitpicking about the fucking scholarly apparatus on an internet forum!

In the words of Lucy Wiggins, "That's your opinion."

Gawd wrote:In the words of Lucy Wiggins, "That's your informed opinion."

Fixed.

Barry Cade wrote:

Gawd wrote:In the words of Lucy Wiggins, "That's your informed opinion."

Fixed.

I don't recall Lucy ever saying that.