Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42341  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 24, 2017 1:40 am

proudfootz wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Stein wrote:Apparently, this Holland guy has been praised in certain right-wing circles (as described at the foot of this piece) --

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/cul ... and-review

Isn't that interesting?

Stein


No more interesting than the thugs and sadists who use religious texts as an excuse to oppress, rob, torture, rape, and kill others.


For a religious proponent, the Reverend Spong on the "Terrible Texts of the Bible" covers this aspect very well.


It's so tedious for defenders of orthodoxy to bring out these one-sided 'arguments' as if all the bad guys are among the skeptics.

Holland can't be held responsible for the choices other people make.


To what extent have the Christian and Islamic "Book Religions" been fabricated by the warlords who implemented them in antiquity in order to maintain large geographical expanses of conquered territory by means of a centralised monotheistic state cult?


Thinking about the alliance between church and state that has obtained throughout recorded history all over the globe rather gives me the impression that they are twin forms of social control each relying upon the other and each supporting the other.


Who profited from the English Bible?

The English?

Certainly NOT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aikenhead


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version

    The King James Version (KJV), also known as the King James Bible (KJB) or simply the Authorized Version (AV), is an English translation of the Christian Bible for the Church of England begun in 1604 and completed in 1611

    ///

    The first had been the Great Bible, commissioned in the reign of King Henry VIII (1535), and the second had been the Bishops' Bible of 1568.[3] In January 1604, James VI and I convened the Hampton Court Conference, where a new English version was conceived in response to the problems of the earlier translations perceived by the Puritans,[4] a faction of the Church of England.[5] The translation is noted for its "majesty of style", and has been described as one of the most important books in English culture[6] and a driving force in the shaping of the English-speaking world.

I cant help thinking that these book religions are basically just rackets run by racketeers who have managed to convince themselves they are doing something worthwhile for their own monopoly business over the great unwashed. We all know WAR IS A RACKET. If we don't then we should read Smedley Butler' piece. It follows therefore that these centralised monotheistic state religious cults are simply spin-off rackets from the great racket of war.

War and Book religions are twin rackets - "forms of social control each relying upon the other and each supporting the other." A study of history seems to confirm this simple observation.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42342  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 26, 2017 5:11 am

To what extent was belief in the historical (or mythical) Jesus magnified by the decrees of 4th century Roman Emperors?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se-majest%C3%A9
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the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42343  Postby aban57 » Oct 06, 2017 12:50 pm

So what color what Jesus ? Was he white, as he is mostly depicted today, or was he more dark-skinned ?
What color were Jews born in Judea at that time ?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42344  Postby proudfootz » Oct 06, 2017 12:55 pm

Here is an illustration from a synagogue, which I would expect depicts people as they saw themselves.

Image

Had there been an Historical Jesus along the lines sometimes described, he could very well have appeared like this.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42345  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 06, 2017 2:58 pm

aban57 wrote:So what color what Jesus ? Was he white, as he is mostly depicted today, or was he more dark-skinned ?...

I don't know, but he was probably the biological son of a Roman soldier and a middle-eastern woman. His skin colour might therefore have ben anything between the two. Most likely, palish brown.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42346  Postby aban57 » Oct 06, 2017 3:08 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
aban57 wrote:So what color what Jesus ? Was he white, as he is mostly depicted today, or was he more dark-skinned ?...

I don't know, but he was probably the biological son of a Roman soldier and a middle-eastern woman. His skin colour might therefore have ben anything between the two. Most likely, palish brown.


I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the Historical Jesus, but the Jesus from the Bible. If he had existed, what color would he be ? And as I'm typing this, I realize how stupid that question is, as we only know what Maria looked like (if we even do). What color is God ? :lol:
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42347  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 06, 2017 4:27 pm

aban57 wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
aban57 wrote:So what color what Jesus ? Was he white, as he is mostly depicted today, or was he more dark-skinned ?...

I don't know, but he was probably the biological son of a Roman soldier and a middle-eastern woman. His skin colour might therefore have ben anything between the two. Most likely, palish brown.


I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the Historical Jesus, but the Jesus from the Bible. If he had existed, what color would he be ? And as I'm typing this, I realize how stupid that question is, as we only know what Maria looked like (if we even do). What color is God ? :lol:

Sorry, but it only seemed like a sensible question to ask about historical Jesus. The Jesus of the bible didn't even exist, so how could he have had a skin-colour? :scratch:
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42348  Postby aban57 » Oct 06, 2017 5:34 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
aban57 wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
aban57 wrote:So what color what Jesus ? Was he white, as he is mostly depicted today, or was he more dark-skinned ?...

I don't know, but he was probably the biological son of a Roman soldier and a middle-eastern woman. His skin colour might therefore have ben anything between the two. Most likely, palish brown.


I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the Historical Jesus, but the Jesus from the Bible. If he had existed, what color would he be ? And as I'm typing this, I realize how stupid that question is, as we only know what Maria looked like (if we even do). What color is God ? :lol:

Sorry, but it only seemed like a sensible question to ask about historical Jesus. The Jesus of the bible didn't even exist, so how could he have had a skin-colour? :scratch:


Don't be sorry, the fault is mine here. Wrong topic. I was following a discussion somewhere else about how Jesus is depicted. The usual "Jesus was not white, he lived in the middle east". I was wondering what was the most plausible skin color, that's all. Never thought about the "god's color" side of the story before.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42349  Postby RealityRules » Oct 07, 2017 1:19 am

.
"Historical Jesus", like the NT Jesus, is unverified.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42350  Postby proudfootz » Oct 07, 2017 1:21 am

aban57 wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
aban57 wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
I don't know, but he was probably the biological son of a Roman soldier and a middle-eastern woman. His skin colour might therefore have ben anything between the two. Most likely, palish brown.


I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the Historical Jesus, but the Jesus from the Bible. If he had existed, what color would he be ? And as I'm typing this, I realize how stupid that question is, as we only know what Maria looked like (if we even do). What color is God ? :lol:

Sorry, but it only seemed like a sensible question to ask about historical Jesus. The Jesus of the bible didn't even exist, so how could he have had a skin-colour? :scratch:


Don't be sorry, the fault is mine here. Wrong topic. I was following a discussion somewhere else about how Jesus is depicted. The usual "Jesus was not white, he lived in the middle east". I was wondering what was the most plausible skin color, that's all. Never thought about the "god's color" side of the story before.


I don't see any problem with discussing that sort of thing here.

hence my reply upthread. :thumbup:
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42351  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 07, 2017 10:43 am

proudfootz wrote:
aban57 wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
aban57 wrote:

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the Historical Jesus, but the Jesus from the Bible. If he had existed, what color would he be ? And as I'm typing this, I realize how stupid that question is, as we only know what Maria looked like (if we even do). What color is God ? :lol:

Sorry, but it only seemed like a sensible question to ask about historical Jesus. The Jesus of the bible didn't even exist, so how could he have had a skin-colour? :scratch:


Don't be sorry, the fault is mine here. Wrong topic. I was following a discussion somewhere else about how Jesus is depicted. The usual "Jesus was not white, he lived in the middle east". I was wondering what was the most plausible skin color, that's all. Never thought about the "god's color" side of the story before.


I don't see any problem with discussing that sort of thing here.

hence my reply upthread. :thumbup:

I suspect that historical Jesus was a relatively pale-skinned individual, perhaps due to being a half-cast, and this might have made him "stand out from the crowd" a bit.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42352  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 24, 2017 6:39 am

DavidMcC wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
aban57 wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Sorry, but it only seemed like a sensible question to ask about historical Jesus. The Jesus of the bible didn't even exist, so how could he have had a skin-colour? :scratch:


Don't be sorry, the fault is mine here. Wrong topic. I was following a discussion somewhere else about how Jesus is depicted. The usual "Jesus was not white, he lived in the middle east". I was wondering what was the most plausible skin color, that's all. Never thought about the "god's color" side of the story before.


I don't see any problem with discussing that sort of thing here.

hence my reply upthread. :thumbup:

I suspect that historical Jesus was a relatively pale-skinned individual, perhaps due to being a half-cast, and this might have made him "stand out from the crowd" a bit.


What sort of skin colour did Bilbo Baggins or Harry Potter have?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42353  Postby proudfootz » Oct 24, 2017 2:33 pm

A very handsome color!

Image

Image
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42354  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 26, 2017 10:23 pm

MOVING FROM FICTION TO THE INTERPETATION OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ...

Here's a mural from the 3rd century at Dura Europos which the Yale Divinity College (the archaeology report from Carl Kraeling) claim is a representation of [the Historical?] Jesus "Healing the Paralytic". Jesus is supposed to be the authority figure at the top. The paralytic is represented twice in the same scene. On the LHS the paralytic is walking about carrying his bed, on the RHS the paralytic is bedridden.

According to the interpretation provided the paralytic is thus supposed to appear twice in the one scene.

Are there any precedents for this in ancient art? Or is this a "first"?

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(folklore)

    A fetch is a supernatural double or an apparition of a living person in Irish folklore. It is largely akin to the doppelgänger, and sightings are regarded as omens, usually for impending death. The origin of the term is unclear.

Where's Wally?
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42355  Postby proudfootz » Oct 26, 2017 10:26 pm

It seems like an early form of a cartoon - separate images implying or illustrating action over time.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42356  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 27, 2017 2:20 am

proudfootz wrote:It seems like an early form of a cartoon - separate images implying or illustrating action over time.


Here's a drawing made upon the discovery c.1930's, by one of the archaeologists.
The original mural was found at Dura Europos and is generally dated to the early to mid 3rd century.

Image

Again Jesus at the top commands. The up-and-walking paralytic on the LHS is presented a second time as bedridden on the RHS.

That's an interesting comment about it being similar to a cartoon - or at least an abbreviated rendition of two separate scenes. But if that were the case I'd expect the bedridden paralytic to be on the LHS (at the start, reading left to right) and the walking dude to be on the RHS, coinciding with the direction and hand signals of the figure above (assumed by many modern biblical scholars to be Jesus).

I checked the history of cartoons and cant see much before the 16th century. Caricatures OTOH in antiquity have been discussed here before, such as the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

Image

But in this the one figure does not appear twice, as is claimed in the interpretation of the Dura "Jesus healing the paralytic" mural. If their interpretation is correct then I'd guess its a type of composite drawing showing the BEFORE and AFTER situations at the same time. I guess today it could be called two frames of a story being superimposed, even if it looks back the front. I have never heard of such an art form anywhere in antiquity, and even wonder what on earth it could possibly be classified or even described as.
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the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42357  Postby proudfootz » Oct 27, 2017 9:44 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
proudfootz wrote:It seems like an early form of a cartoon - separate images implying or illustrating action over time.


Here's a drawing made upon the discovery c.1930's, by one of the archaeologists.
The original mural was found at Dura Europos and is generally dated to the early to mid 3rd century.

Image

Again Jesus at the top commands. The up-and-walking paralytic on the LHS is presented a second time as bedridden on the RHS.

That's an interesting comment about it being similar to a cartoon - or at least an abbreviated rendition of two separate scenes. But if that were the case I'd expect the bedridden paralytic to be on the LHS (at the start, reading left to right) and the walking dude to be on the RHS, coinciding with the direction and hand signals of the figure above (assumed by many modern biblical scholars to be Jesus).


I'm just taking a wild guess. based on the description. I suppose it could be something else based on another version of the story of the paralytic - one guy is already cured and carrying his bed away while the other fellow waits his turn.

As for the reading of comics left to right, that does seem to conform with modern English-speaking conventions (which would also work for Greek and Latin reading conventions). But maybe without well-established conventions and a largely illiterate audience it wouldn't be so important to mimic the written language.

I checked the history of cartoons and cant see much before the 16th century. Caricatures OTOH in antiquity have been discussed here before, such as the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

Image

But in this the one figure does not appear twice, as is claimed in the interpretation of the Dura "Jesus healing the paralytic" mural. If their interpretation is correct then I'd guess its a type of composite drawing showing the BEFORE and AFTER situations at the same time. I guess today it could be called two frames of a story being superimposed, even if it looks back the front. I have never heard of such an art form anywhere in antiquity, and even wonder what on earth it could possibly be classified or even described as.


It never occurred to me to think about how our conventions for reading before-and-after images came about, or if they'd been developed during Classical times. If it had been evolving in graphic terms a real art scholar might already have written about it.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42358  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 28, 2017 4:46 am

proudfootz wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
proudfootz wrote:It seems like an early form of a cartoon - separate images implying or illustrating action over time.


Here's a drawing made upon the discovery c.1930's, by one of the archaeologists.
The original mural was found at Dura Europos and is generally dated to the early to mid 3rd century.

Image

Again Jesus at the top commands. The up-and-walking paralytic on the LHS is presented a second time as bedridden on the RHS.

That's an interesting comment about it being similar to a cartoon - or at least an abbreviated rendition of two separate scenes. But if that were the case I'd expect the bedridden paralytic to be on the LHS (at the start, reading left to right) and the walking dude to be on the RHS, coinciding with the direction and hand signals of the figure above (assumed by many modern biblical scholars to be Jesus).


I'm just taking a wild guess. based on the description. I suppose it could be something else based on another version of the story of the paralytic - one guy is already cured and carrying his bed away while the other fellow waits his turn.


I think your "wild guess" reflects the consensus. The depiction is being interpreted from another version of the healing the multitudes, and possibly related to the Diatesseron versions. The complete mural sequence looks like this:

Image

The "Jesus is Healing" frame is to the LHS and next to it is the "Jesus and Peter walling on the water" mural.

Image

Underneath these is found what they have variously called:
(1) Women at the Tomb of Jesus
(2) The Wise and Foolish Virgins.

Image

Apparently the Jesus figure in the above "JEsus and Peter walk on the water" is the figure on the LHS while the figure on the RHS (who is headless) is supposed to be Peter.

One of the bases for these interpetations is that the healing of the multitude and the walking on water scenes are adjacent to each other in some versions of the Jesus story.

I am not completely convinced however.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Historical Jesus

#42359  Postby Clive Durdle » Nov 14, 2017 12:37 pm

So we must be very careful not to read in later ideas, especially about interpreting drawings. How would someone depict a sequence without never having seen Disney?

And we must compare and contrast writing and pictures of the same time.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#42360  Postby archibald » Nov 15, 2017 10:55 am

Murals depicting Jesus from as early as 250AD. Cool. That is early.
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