VazScep wrote:There's a standard bunch of arguments against the well-intentioned idea of colour-blindness, notably (for me) the one that says that colourblind cops are blind to departmental racism.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...TBH Vaz I don't see why a colourblind cop would also be blind to other people's racism - In fact I think they'd be all the more likely to spot it and call the racism out because it would seem so weird/foreign/wrong.

I think we might be getting there you know. Musicians are the best, especially failed ones

Keep It Real wrote:

VazScep wrote:There's a standard bunch of arguments against the well-intentioned idea of colour-blindness, notably (for me) the one that says that colourblind cops are blind to departmental racism.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...TBH Vaz I don't see why a colourblind cop would also be blind to other people's racism - In fact I think they'd be all the more likely to spot it and call the racism out because it would seem so weird/foreign/wrong.

Buried not at all deep in here (look, I can see it right there at the end!) is the assumption that racism is experienced as something weird/foreign/wrong and thus as something especially visible. Why think that? You have testimony not just from the black women who attend this festival (heck, it's part of what the festival's about), and even here from SOS who is not (as far as I gathered) a person of colour, that it isn't typically experienced in this way. On the contrary, SOS even went at length to you about how hard he had to train himself and reflect on it to be able to see any of it.

VazScep wrote:This stuff is beyond me, but my attention is drawn to Matthew's use of the word "patronised." I don't know how common that feeling is, but I know I suffer from it a lot, and it usually makes me hostile to the sort of activism that Freeman complains about.

At least partly this is the difference between treating racial or ethnic categories as a problem of discourse, and dealing with racial or ethnic categories as a way of life. I guess one can make certain assumptions about the way discourse creates one's way of life, but I'm not convinced. Some people experience racism (theirs or others) as a way of life, that is, they cannot even function without deploying (or having forced upon them) racial or ethnic categories, whereas other people don't.

Whoever I'm dealing with, it quickly becomes obvious whether or not our 'identities' (racial, gender, etc) are important or not in our interaction, and adaptation happens on the fly. Even to the point that if that's what somebody wants to talk about, I'm not prepared to deny that's the case, even to the point of accepting that it's a way of life for somebody. That it isn't for me is beside the point. I base my identity on a broad range of stuff that I've been able actively to select, and recognize that somebody else's experience might have been different, in no small part because racial or ethnic categories are a way of life for so many people.

This cuts both ways, because when I recognise it is a way of life for somebody, far be it from me to persuade them otherwise. Openings may present themselves to do otherwise, but I don't expect them, and don't try to force them to appear. The point of discussions such as we frequently have here is to make sure everyone realises that identity categories are a necessary way of life, at least for them. If they are, so be it, but I can take a break from it, whereas other people either do not voluntarily or are not permitted. In doing my part to fix the world, I gave at the office, and give up on the internet as a way to fix the world.

Spinozasgalt wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:

VazScep wrote:There's a standard bunch of arguments against the well-intentioned idea of colour-blindness, notably (for me) the one that says that colourblind cops are blind to departmental racism.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...TBH Vaz I don't see why a colourblind cop would also be blind to other people's racism - In fact I think they'd be all the more likely to spot it and call the racism out because it would seem so weird/foreign/wrong.

Buried not at all deep in here (look, I can see it right there at the end!) is the assumption that racism is experienced as something weird/foreign/wrong and thus as something especially visible. Why think that? You have testimony not just from the black women who attend this festival (heck, it's part of what the festival's about), and even here from SOS who is not (as far as I gathered) a person of colour, that it isn't typically experienced in this way. On the contrary, SOS even went at length to you about how hard he had to train himself and reflect on it to be able to see any of it.

But those people aren't colourblind.

White Men and Republicans Don't Think Domestic Violence Is All That Important

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/mass-shooters-are-why-white-men-and-republicans-should-think-domestic-violence

Keep It Real wrote:

Spinozasgalt wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:

VazScep wrote:There's a standard bunch of arguments against the well-intentioned idea of colour-blindness, notably (for me) the one that says that colourblind cops are blind to departmental racism.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...TBH Vaz I don't see why a colourblind cop would also be blind to other people's racism - In fact I think they'd be all the more likely to spot it and call the racism out because it would seem so weird/foreign/wrong.

Buried not at all deep in here (look, I can see it right there at the end!) is the assumption that racism is experienced as something weird/foreign/wrong and thus as something especially visible. Why think that? You have testimony not just from the black women who attend this festival (heck, it's part of what the festival's about), and even here from SOS who is not (as far as I gathered) a person of colour, that it isn't typically experienced in this way. On the contrary, SOS even went at length to you about how hard he had to train himself and reflect on it to be able to see any of it.

But those people aren't colourblind.

Mmm'hmm, so you're sticking with this view that this ideal colourblind person will be able to just see all these forms of racism because of how they appear as something weird/foreign/wrong. So again, why think that? Why think that these problems that are difficult even for people who are racially cognizant will become hyper-visible for some ideal agent who doesn't see race and isn't thinking about it?

Spinozasgalt wrote:
Mmm'hmm, so you're sticking with this view that this ideal colourblind person will be able to just see all these forms of racism because of how they appear as something weird/foreign/wrong. So again, why think that? Why think that these problems that are difficult even for people who are racially cognizant will become hyper-visible for some ideal agent who doesn't see race and isn't thinking about it?

Logical deduction and introspection. It's not like being unaware of racism is necessary in order to not be racist. I mean, the name Rosa Parks isn't about to vanish from the library.

Huh. So this colourblind person will be cognizant of, and introspective about, the racial narratives and histories of oppression of people of colour. And they're gonna take these and other details into account when looking for coded racism and stuff? Great. Doesn't look like a colourblind approach to me, but great.

Thanks for talking to me spinny.....tell me all about it

please

Keep It Real wrote:tell me all about it

What would be interesting, and all, KIR, is why you're having such trouble with basic concepts, and you having an honors degree and all. It's as if you forgot how to read so's you could ask someone else to tell you all about it. This is not the same as really having forgotten how to read.

Fucking tune tho innit I'm reluctant to kill that fire....but then again the alternative is suicide so still...pam pam.

Notice how these guys don't use the n word? Never.

Tick tock tick tock...oh well I guess I'll just carry on...I don't know what's going to happen.

mmmmm....wrong thread really but maybe apro po still

Tick tock tick tock..

Keep It Real wrote:

Notice how these guys don't use the n word? Never.

wow, really haven't been able to get enough of this one last couple of days...flow...spesh

bump