The trouble with horse racing

Keep It Real · **#21** by **Keep It Real** » Mar 16, 2018 11:05 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:Just phrasing it to reflect the similarities and to make sure what I'm referencing is recognized.

Fair enough SAM, gotcha, good idea, worked a treat :thumbup:

SafeAsMilk wrote:It's all torture for human pleasure though, isn't it?

Unlike Yulin the torture appears to me to be due to negligence/apathy/collateral in the name of entertainment/financial gain; unlike with Yulin where it appears to be the sole objective (IMO). Rather different.

jamest · **#22** by **jamest** » Mar 16, 2018 11:18 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:I'm not really sure what that has to do with, or in any way justifies them being tortured.

I didn't suggest that it did. Playing devil's advocate, I'm merely suggesting that if humans didn't have a use for horses, then horses generally would probably be more fucked than they already are. The only conclusion you can reasonably infer from these comments is that human behaviour is generally deplorable, to the extent that if we didn't allow humans to use animals such as horses as they currently do then one would have to fear for the future of there being any horses at all. Except maybe in zoos.

I'm not really sure if that's the case, after all innumerable species exist that aren't of any use to humans at all. But let's grant it anyway. You're saying that horses not existing (and therefore not being tortured) is more fucked or "worse off" than existing and being tortured, right?

To be honest I'm unaware as to the extent of the ill-treatment of horses. It does strike me as odd though that an owner of a horse that is (or has the potential to be) worth many dollars (many millions thereof in some instances), would treat said horse with utter disdain. I don't know a lot about horses, but I know enough about humans to know that they will do their best to protect a valuable asset. So, I'm dubious as to the extent of this cruelty, though do not doubt that it ever happens.

Your last question is quite interesting. I mean, I would suggest that throughout history the vast majority of humans have suffered greatly because of the cruelty of a minority of humans. The rich taking advantage of the poor and ignorant, for instance, or the Kings/politicians sitting in the thrones and using the peasants to fight their wars. Etc.. This is still the case now, but I do not wish to see humanity become extinct or close to it to alleviate us of this fubar suffering. Rather, my hope is that humanity survives and changes sufficient to rid itself of these cruelties. Therefore, being consistent, I would prefer that the horse population stays large and that eventually our cruelties towards them will diminish/vanish in the not-so-distant future.

SafeAsMilk · **#23** by **SafeAsMilk** » Mar 16, 2018 11:26 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Just phrasing it to reflect the similarities and to make sure what I'm referencing is recognized.

Fair enough SAM, gotcha, good idea, worked a treat

SafeAsMilk wrote:It's all torture for human pleasure though, isn't it?

Unlike Yulin the torture appears to me to be due to negligence/apathy/collateral in the name of entertainment/financial gain; unlike with Yulin where it appears to be the sole objective (IMO). Rather different.

I don't think that's the actual reason, though. I remember reading it's for a similar reason to the whole lobster thing: the fresher the kill, the better it tastes. I'll have to try finding that article again.

Keep It Real · **#24** by **Keep It Real** » Mar 16, 2018 11:28 pm

jamest wrote:To be honest I'm unaware as to the extent of the ill-treatment of horses.

Get to know please good clever m8 of mine. Check this: https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues/our-campaigns/horse-racing/

A distressing death for race horse Sandsend as he becomes the third victim at the 2018 Cheltenham Festival
Racing at full speed and close to the end of the 2-mile Randox Health County Hurdle, 5-year-old grey gelding Sandsend (FR) lost his footing on Cheltenham Racecourse’s atrociously heavy, poached ground.

This all happened this week in my home town.

jamest wrote:It does strike me as odd though that an owner of a horse that is (or has the potential to be) worth many dollars (many millions thereof in some instances), would treat said horse with utter disdain.

They do the bare minimum in order to induce optimal racing performance and once the horses are no longer fighting fit selectively bred/engineered potential champions they are invariably treated like the most dispicapably trivial detritus imaginable. :thumbdown:

Keep It Real · **#25** by **Keep It Real** » Mar 16, 2018 11:32 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Just phrasing it to reflect the similarities and to make sure what I'm referencing is recognized.

Fair enough SAM, gotcha, good idea, worked a treat

SafeAsMilk wrote:It's all torture for human pleasure though, isn't it?

Unlike Yulin the torture appears to me to be due to negligence/apathy/collateral in the name of entertainment/financial gain; unlike with Yulin where it appears to be the sole objective (IMO). Rather different.

I don't think that's the actual reason, though. I remember reading it's for a similar reason to the whole lobster thing: the fresher the kill, the better it tastes. I'll have to try finding that article again.

That's a red herring excuse/deception SAM - even if blowtorching dogsalive did produce a slightly more tasty meal (which is extremely unlikely IMO); as if those ends could possibly justify such torture. Anyway; hopefully Yulin is history; so perhaps we should stop referencing it for now...

SafeAsMilk · **#26** by **SafeAsMilk** » Mar 16, 2018 11:54 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Just phrasing it to reflect the similarities and to make sure what I'm referencing is recognized.

Fair enough SAM, gotcha, good idea, worked a treat

SafeAsMilk wrote:It's all torture for human pleasure though, isn't it?

Unlike Yulin the torture appears to me to be due to negligence/apathy/collateral in the name of entertainment/financial gain; unlike with Yulin where it appears to be the sole objective (IMO). Rather different.

I don't think that's the actual reason, though. I remember reading it's for a similar reason to the whole lobster thing: the fresher the kill, the better it tastes. I'll have to try finding that article again.

That's a red herring excuse/deception SAM - even if blowtorching dogsalive did produce a slightly more tasty meal (which is extremely unlikely IMO); as if those ends could possibly justify such torture. Anyway; hopefully Yulin is history; so perhaps we should stop referencing it for now...

It isn't a herring or an excuse, it's a reason that isn't torture for torture's sake, which was the point I was making. You and I don't think it justifies the torture, just as you and I don't think the pleasure gleaned from racing horses is a justification for their torture either. Doesn't change the fact that it clearly justifies it for them in both cases.

Keep It Real · **#27** by **Keep It Real** » Mar 17, 2018 8:12 am

It is a red herring/excuse IMO, it's not IYO (fuck knows why :roll:

) but as I said lets just agree to disagree as it might be over anyway and it's OT most certainly. If you reference Yulin again in this thread I will reply to no part of that comment.

Cheltenham Festival: BHA to carry out review after six horse deaths at event

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/43438392

Not 3 dead horses; 6. Good week's work guys! My you lot have been busy! :cheers:

Keep It Real · **#28** by **Keep It Real** » Mar 17, 2018 8:23 am

Isobel Hutchinson, Director, Animal Aid wrote:

‘The bloodshed at this week’s Cheltenham Festival is simply unforgivable. It seems to us that these animals are being treated like disposable pieces of sports equipment – not sentient animals who can feel pain and terror.

‘Questions then urgently need to be answered about the regulation of racing, which we believe is utterly deficient, and constantly puts horses at risk of suffering sickening injuries and dying brutal deaths. While this cruel sport continues, the very least we can do is to ensure that horses are not paying for it with their lives.’

Fallible · **#29** by **Fallible** » Mar 17, 2018 10:11 am

I won't have horse racing on in this house. I can't bear to watch it. Owners only care about horses/dogs as long as they are winning, and while they are winning, their lives revolve around what needs to be done in order for them to win.

I know more about dogs than horses. For racing greyhounds, their lives are regimented, they're fed precisely, they spend their time being shipped from track to track and live in crates. They are let out for training and racing. Then when their form starts to dip, they are disposed of. My own dog won 13 races. When he started to only manage 2nd or 3rd, he was swiftly sold to another trainer, who only ended up keeping him for a matter of weeks. He was one of the lucky ones who ended up in a rescue centre.

Many dogs end up as fluttermoth has already touched on, with their ears cut off so they can't be traced and abandoned. Many more are shot. Many puppies never become fully grown, as they are destroyed when it becomes apparent that they are not going to become winners. Unfortunately Ireland is one of the worst culprits when it comes to cruelty and neglect, due to among other things the prevalence of 'flapper' tracks - unregistered racetracks. Often Irish greyhounds are beaten, burned, left to lie in their own urine which causes burns to their delicate haunch flesh and abandoned, tied up, so they are unable to find food. I have even read of them having their legs tied and thrown in rivers. It utterly disgusts me, the whole idea of us using animals in this way.

As for the idea that if it weren't for the racing horses wouldn't exist, I call bullshit. Many people own horses just to ride them for pleasure, and there are also lots of wild horses and ponies.

Thommo · **#30** by **Thommo** » Mar 17, 2018 10:26 am

Small typo? I think her name is fluttermoth rather than fluttermouth isn't it?

Good post though. Sad, but well worth saying. I find these things hard to think about, in truth.

Fallible · **#31** by **Fallible** » Mar 17, 2018 10:29 am

Oops, hang on.

fluttermoth · **#32** by **fluttermoth** » Mar 17, 2018 2:30 pm

It was much easier when I had the moth avatar

My last dog was also an ex racer. I looked him up online (there is a very good racing greyhound database; it does look, to all intents and purposes, as if the industry is trying to make dog owners/trainers more accountable and dogs traceable, but it falls apart on the practical side; I honestly believe it's mostly a PR exercise) and he was owned by a syndicate that had had over 2 500 dogs registered with them. 2 500 dogs, and that's just one, small, not very successful, syndicate in Ireland. Multiply that by all the owners/trainers out there, and you get some feel for the scale of the problem.

jamest wrote:
To be honest I'm unaware as to the extent of the ill-treatment of horses. It does strike me as odd though that an owner of a horse that is (or has the potential to be) worth many dollars (many millions thereof in some instances), would treat said horse with utter disdain. I don't know a lot about horses, but I know enough about humans to know that they will do their best to protect a valuable asset. So, I'm dubious as to the extent of this cruelty, though do not doubt that it ever happens.

The horses (or dogs) that are successful certainly are worth a lot of money, and are extremely well looked after; the problem is that there are hundreds of youngsters bred, that don't make the grade, for every one that does, and once the animal has failed on the racetrack, they're worth virtually nothing. I don't think most owners/trainers are cruel in the sense of being physically abusive towards the animals, although of course that will happen, it's more that the industry has certain goals that are incompatible with the long term welfare of the majority of the animals they breed.

Racing greyhounds (much as I love them!) have been breed for thousands of years to do nothing but run; you really can't train them to do much else, although they make lovely pets and housedogs.

Ex racehorses take extremely long, patient retraining to become any good in any other sphere, and many are just too physically weakened after being worked so young, that they can't cope with the normal stresses of being ridden, even if you can get through to them mentally. And because they're so overbred, they can't just live out in a field with a rug (certainly not in winter in the UK), so rehoming them becomes very difficult; horses are bloody expensive things, and even the most ardent horse lover is going to find it hard to justify the expense of feeding and stabling a big horse they can't ride; even if you just need a companion horse, it's cheaper and easier to keep a native pony type, rather than a thoroughbred.

laklak · **#33** by **laklak** » Mar 17, 2018 2:49 pm

Animal racing should go the way of bear baiting.

Scot Dutchy · **#34** by **Scot Dutchy** » Mar 18, 2018 1:05 pm

Just remove the money out of horse racing and see how long it would last. The same goes for most top sports.

I'm With Stupid · **#35** by **I'm With Stupid** » Mar 18, 2018 3:05 pm

The trouble with horse racing is that no-one actually likes it. It exists purely as something to bet on. I've never met anyone who watches horse racing who hasn't either bet on the race, is checking the form in order to bet on a different race, or owns the horse.

The_Piper · **#36** by **The_Piper** » Mar 18, 2018 3:11 pm

laklak wrote:Animal racing should go the way of bear baiting.

Bear baiting is still alive and well in Maine, with certain restrictions. :nono:

http://www.maine.gov/ifw/hunting-trapping/hunting-laws/bear.html

felltoearth · **#37** by **felltoearth** » Mar 18, 2018 3:40 pm

jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:I'm not really sure what that has to do with, or in any way justifies them being tortured.

I didn't suggest that it did. Playing devil's advocate, I'm merely suggesting that if humans didn't have a use for horses, then horses generally would probably be more fucked than they already are. The only conclusion you can reasonably infer from these comments is that human behaviour is generally deplorable, to the extent that if we didn't allow humans to use animals such as horses as they currently do then one would have to fear for the future of there being any horses at all. Except maybe in zoos.

That you can't recognize that for the logical fail that it is, is staggering.

fluttermoth · **#38** by **fluttermoth** » Mar 18, 2018 5:39 pm

felltoearth wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:I'm not really sure what that has to do with, or in any way justifies them being tortured.

I didn't suggest that it did. Playing devil's advocate, I'm merely suggesting that if humans didn't have a use for horses, then horses generally would probably be more fucked than they already are. The only conclusion you can reasonably infer from these comments is that human behaviour is generally deplorable, to the extent that if we didn't allow humans to use animals such as horses as they currently do then one would have to fear for the future of there being any horses at all. Except maybe in zoos.

That you can't recognize that for the logical fail that it is, is staggering.

Agreed!

Anyway, there are other uses for horses, apart from racing, that aren't particularly abusive; leisure riding for example; there's no real issue with riding on a horse, if it's fit and schooled properly. I'm quite a fan of other horse sports, such as dressage and three day eventing and, while occasional abuses and welfare issues do crop up in those sports, they are genuinely not on anything like the same scale as in racing. A show jumper or dressage horse that doesn't make the top grade is very, very likely to be useful to someone in a way that racehorses very rarely are (I've been around horses all my life, btw, and have ridden many ex racers, so I do have some practical experience of what I'm talking about).

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