'Democracy'. What is it?

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'Democracy'. What is it?

#1  Postby Alan B » Jan 14, 2019 5:16 pm

The fundamental principle (as I see it) is that in a democracy the general population is allowed to change their mind to rescind a previous decision if new data, or even a 'change of heart' due to the effect of subsequent events, warrants it.

But, what we have in most countries is quite different. Using the UK Referendum as an example, is that those in favour of the recent Referendum result are trying to declare that the result (obtained by lies and deception) is binding even though this diktat was not part of the Referendum proposal. Which, in effect, is a dictatorial approach stating that the public have spoken and cannot be allowed to change their minds under any circumstances with the threat of "dire consequences" if they even try.

This is not 'Democracy'. It is the approach of a 'dictator' type mind-set (whether or not they themselves are aware of such a way of thinking).
Many countries claim they are Democracies. But I would suggest that this is in name only. If the voting system allows blatant lying, deception and misrepresentation to achieve a majority result (however large or small) and that the result is then declared to be binding, regardless, then what of 'Democracy'?

I would further suggest that a voting populace that has been lied to, deceived and kept in ignorance has no mandate except to those politically motivated liars and deceivers and their supporters.


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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#2  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 14, 2019 6:52 pm

In a two party system referenda are used to silence the parliament. They are favoured by dictators as well. They are considered absolute and final even though they are usually just a binary choice.

The law that allowed them here has been scrapped and they are no longer possible. It is a terrible device that circumvents the purpose of parliament. It has no place in a democracy which is why it is still used in the UK.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#3  Postby aban57 » Jan 14, 2019 7:00 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:In a two party system referenda are used to silence the parliament. They are favoured by dictators as well. They are considered absolute and final even though they are usually just a binary choice.

The law that allowed them here has been scrapped and they are no longer possible. It is a terrible device that circumvents the purpose of parliament. It has no place in a democracy which is why it is still used in the UK.


More bullshit by Mr Iknowitall. Switzerland uses them often, without any prejudice. The only difference here is that the questions asked have a simple output, which is enforced easily, and rapidly. Here, not only the output is very complex, but its enforcement hasn't been planned before the referendum.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#4  Postby Thommo » Jan 14, 2019 10:15 pm

Democracy means that political power rests with the "demos" - that means people.

Exactly the same as theocracy means political power rests with the "theos" - priests. Or as monarchy means political power rests with the monarch.

I think this thread is actually an attempt to understand (or perhaps contradict) the claim that having a second referendum on Brexit is undemocratic. The argument for that is that politicians who promised that the first referendum would be enacted are demanding a mulligan because they didn't get their way. By making the people pass two hurdles instead of one to get their will enacted, when it would have only been the one hurdle if the decision had gone their way, they are placing a finger on the scales of democracy and tipping the balance. If one accepts that there is a random or chance element in how any vote turns out, then what MPs are proposing dramatically skews the odds in their favour (given that we accept the population is really about 50/50 on Brexit but parliament is nothing like).

That said, obviously if the second decision is still a referendum the power does still reside with the people, so there are points for and against the argument.

I have to say I think the statement that democracy means people getting to change their mind is a total red herring and not a feature of any commonly proposed definition of the term. You don't get to change your mind about your vote in an election. If the term of office is 5 years and you get fed up 1, 2 or 3 years in there's exactly nothing you can do about it in any democracy that I'm aware of and it's certainly not a democratic norm.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#5  Postby romansh » Jan 14, 2019 10:46 pm

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.… Churchill
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#6  Postby Macdoc » Jan 14, 2019 11:20 pm

The fundamental principle (as I see it) is that in a democracy the general population is allowed to change their mind to rescind a previous decision if new data, or even a 'change of heart' due to the effect of subsequent events, warrants it.


That maybe so in a direct democracy but we don't have those ( tho Switzerland comes close )......we have representative democracies that generally are not subject to recall and are elected to lead/represent for the duration of the term and then the electorate are empowered to vote again for different or the same representative.

Complicating it is the party system and the party whip system where the representative of his electoral district might be at odds with the policy of the party.
Again he is elected to lead and decide on their behalf. She could decide to cross the floor, he could decide to sit as an independent, she could resign and trigger a by election.

Modern democracies have checks and balances against any arbitrary abuse of power by any of the elected officials and in the extreme some of the checks and balance structures ( usually the judiciary ) can remove the abusive representative from the table. ( corruption, illegal activity etc ) after due process.

Democracy is not mob rule which your first sentence describes.

Democratic goverments have a structure which is not subject to arbitrary or sudden changes....the structures can changed but the barriers are most often very high involving a large proportion of the populace and their representatives from other jurisdictions affected by the proposed changes.

Change in the voting structure for instant ....Alternative vote versus first past the post for instance.

One reason I don't like referendums on any item that fundamentally changes government structure. Stuff like a flag ....sure ...eliminating the senate ...that's structural and not for a referendum to decide.

We pass the decision to our representatives to make changes within the structure and limits of government and the law. That's the general form of democracy currently.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#7  Postby fisherman » Jan 15, 2019 4:31 am

Just to throw into the mix; that our representatives did actually vote to trigger article 50, and then the Withdrawal Act. It seems more apparent then, that is they who have changed their minds rather than the people, who are still roughly split 50/50.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#8  Postby Hermit » Jan 15, 2019 5:40 am

Alan B wrote:Using the UK Referendum as an example, is that those in favour of the recent Referendum result are trying to declare that the result (obtained by lies and deception) is binding

In the UK referendums are not binding on parliament. This contrasts with referendums in such countries as Australia, Switzerland and some states in the US.

At any rate, there are no pure democracies in the real world. All of them are democracies to a greater or smaller degree.

As for initiating another referendum relatively soon after a previous referendum on the same question, it inevitably raises the accusation that the government, which in the UK is the only body that can decide if there is to be one, will simply keep conducting referendums until it gets the result it desires.

In other words, the Leavers are certain to proclaim a second referendum on Brexit as a sham the second it is announced at the latest.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#9  Postby GrahamH » Jan 15, 2019 9:32 am

Hermit wrote:
In other words, the Leavers are certain to proclaim a second referendum on Brexit as a sham the second it is announced at the latest.


And then proclaim it as a rock of democracy if it goes their way, just like last time (Farage saying 52 to 48 would not settle the issue before it went his way by just that margin).
Why do you think that?
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#10  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 15, 2019 10:11 am

aban57 wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:In a two party system referenda are used to silence the parliament. They are favoured by dictators as well. They are considered absolute and final even though they are usually just a binary choice.

The law that allowed them here has been scrapped and they are no longer possible. It is a terrible device that circumvents the purpose of parliament. It has no place in a democracy which is why it is still used in the UK.


More bullshit by Mr Iknowitall. Switzerland uses them often, without any prejudice. The only difference here is that the questions asked have a simple output, which is enforced easily, and rapidly. Here, not only the output is very complex, but its enforcement hasn't been planned before the referendum.


More bullshit from Mr. Knowsnothing. Grow up or is that a problem?
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#11  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 15, 2019 10:18 am

Referenda and representative governments dot go together. Why elect representatives if when they can be side stepped by a referendum. Especially the type held in the UK when one side uses illegal funding to spread lies.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#12  Postby Alan B » Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am

As I understand it, Scot, both sides lied and deceived although the 'Leavers' did appear to use illegal funding. Don't know about the 'Remainers'.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#13  Postby GrahamH » Jan 15, 2019 11:34 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Referenda and representative governments dot go together. Why elect representatives if when they can be side stepped by a referendum. Especially the type held in the UK when one side uses illegal funding to spread lies.

Clearly they can go together. A general election isn't such a good way to gauge the will of the people on specific policy issues. Voters have no way to express a choice about which bits of a manifesto they like or dislike they can't rely on a party in power to enact everything in the manifesto. The Lib Dem U-turn on tuition fees is a notable example of that. Conversely Cameron's promise to hold an EU referendum probably didn't figure highly in most voters' decision. But anything put in a manifesto is treated as having a mandate.

Sometimes government will need to ask specific questions on single issues.
Why do you think that?
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#14  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 15, 2019 11:42 am

It was a mess Alan. Typical of a referendum. Everyone thinks they have the right to say anything. Farage was and has never been an MP. He represents no one but yet he was on the news everyday. Totally wrong. You cant replace a good intelligent debate in the place where it should be by rabble rouser's claiming a load of lies.
This is what happened here over the Ukrainian referendum the result of which was ignored (it was only advisory) and the law changed.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#15  Postby zulumoose » Jan 15, 2019 11:45 am

Thommo wrote:I have to say I think the statement that democracy means people getting to change their mind is a total red herring and not a feature of any commonly proposed definition of the term. You don't get to change your mind about your vote in an election. If the term of office is 5 years and you get fed up 1, 2 or 3 years in there's exactly nothing you can do about it in any democracy that I'm aware of and it's certainly not a democratic norm.


Democracy is about governing according to the choices/representatives of the people.
If changing minds were not a feature of it, there would not have to be periodic elections and set terms.

New elections are all about adapting to meet the new will of the people because circumstances and representatives have changed.

The referendum was advisory, there was no set term for it, yet the result was heeded and acted upon even though it was a marginal win for one side.

There are good arguments to be made that the circumstances have changed, expectations turned out to be completely false, key players departed, new agreements are not representative of what was voted for, polls show a swing in opinion, etc.etc.
Basically every good reason for an election term to run out has been met.

The fact that the deadline is rapidly approaching towards jumping off a cliff into the unknown with little expectation from anyone of a positive gain, makes it seem a bit like signing up for a blindfold S&M session without a safe word.
Have a new referendum, at least now you have peeked through the blindfold and have some idea of how, with what, and by who you are going to be screwed, let someone ask you if you want to continue before you are ball-gagged.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#16  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 15, 2019 11:56 am

GrahamH wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Referenda and representative governments dot go together. Why elect representatives if when they can be side stepped by a referendum. Especially the type held in the UK when one side uses illegal funding to spread lies.

Clearly they can go together. A general election isn't such a good way to gauge the will of the people on specific policy issues. Voters have no way to express a choice about which bits of a manifesto they like or dislike they can't rely on a party in power to enact everything in the manifesto. The Lib Dem U-turn on tuition fees is a notable example of that. Conversely Cameron's promise to hold an EU referendum probably didn't figure highly in most voters' decision. But anything put in a manifesto is treated as having a mandate.

Sometimes government will need to ask specific questions on single issues.


Manifasto's are not written in stone. Here because of the coalition system they are only an indication. The final coalition agreement is set in stone for the length of its life.
I dont agree Graham. You choose either for a representative system or you dont. A two and half party system of the UK is not a good example of a representative system. Even the Irish system does mean every vote has merit.
Why Cameron offered a referendum was purely to save his party? Whether it back fired or not is open to interpretation but knowledge of the proposed tax-directive was floating then. Or was it the ultimate Bullington Club prank? When you live in the tall ivory towers of Cameron et al anything is possible.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#17  Postby GrahamH » Jan 15, 2019 12:33 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Manifasto's are not written in stone.


Which is my point. General elections are very blunt tools.
Why do you think that?
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#18  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 15, 2019 12:54 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Manifasto's are not written in stone.


Which is my point. General elections are very blunt tools.


I find referenda even blunter. Mostly binary which most questions are not.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#19  Postby tuco » Jan 15, 2019 1:12 pm

I have said this early in the Brexit thread and let me reiterate as it's not resolved yet.

Brexit, the referendum about Brexit, is crunch time for one of the oldest and most stable democracies/societies in the world, and as such its fascinating to observe. Personally, I think the debate was quite democratic so far, and this includes misinformation spread before the referendum as I see it as an inevitable part of modern and open society (freedom of speech vs responsibility for not being an idiot).

Few posters already mentioned that arguments can be made for both sides, however, I think it's becoming clear to most that a single binary vote is probably not enough to resolve, what could be called, a break-through of status quo.
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Re: 'Democracy'. What is it?

#20  Postby bogdan9310 » Feb 02, 2019 9:41 pm

I think democracy is a controlled chaos. And when I say controlled I really mean it.
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