How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3121  Postby Cito di Pense » May 03, 2019 8:19 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:I believe we live part way up in a hierarchical world, "God" is the word in English for the supposed top pole of that hierarchy and we can't usefully ask up the hierarchy.


Usefully? That's a judgement call, just as "top" is. Why should anyone pay attention to your judgements? Because to do otherwise would be to deprive a poster of oxygen? You don't seem to care whether or not you get oxygen.

You believe we live part way up in a hierarchical world? You think you know what the top is, the better to pronounce a hierarchy. That's just great, JJ: Another wad of hierarchy jerked from your prosthesis. Har, har, har.

You decided there's a hierarchy, something with a top. You did that because you need there to be a top. Watch out for that imagery, JJ. Bend the spoon of your top. It's too bad you're not better at this. You suck all the life out of your top, before you even present. No wonder you feel so empty that you have to come here selling hierarchy.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3122  Postby Alan B » May 03, 2019 10:02 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:The only other more recent post from you I found was where you asked why God had destroyed "most of the dinoaurs". From that it looked that you had't bothered to pick up that I believe we live part way up in a hierarchical world, "God" is the word in English for the supposed top pole of that hierarchy and we can't usefully ask up the hierarchy.

According to Jesus we humans are the 'top pole of the hierarchy': Matt. 6:9 and Luke 17:20-21. 'God' can only be found within ourselves, so Jesus said - unless he was lying... :whistle:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3123  Postby Fenrir » May 03, 2019 10:23 am

The problem Jayjay has is that the mechanisms whereby "biomes" (i.e environment) "create" (i.e. selects from mutations which are random wrt said environment) are well known and (these days) quite mundane. Anyone can do it at home in a petri dish.

No amount of hyperbolic woo will transform this well known physical process into something majical which has been ruined by nasty athiest "ideology".

Except evidence, which Jayjay doesn't have. Therefore the extended chicken dance. It's a very small god whose only weapon is word games.

And ignorance.

Word games and ignorance.

And, oh why bother.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3124  Postby Spearthrower » May 03, 2019 3:26 pm

Make Evolution Divine Again
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3125  Postby Jayjay4547 » May 04, 2019 10:54 am

Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:The only other more recent post from you I found was where you asked why God had destroyed "most of the dinosaurs". From that it looked that you hadn't bothered to pick up that I believe we live part way up in a hierarchical world, "God" is the word in English for the supposed top pole of that hierarchy and we can't usefully ask up the hierarchy.

According to Jesus we humans are the 'top pole of the hierarchy': Matt. 6:9 and Luke 17:20-21. 'God' can only be found within ourselves, so Jesus said - unless he was lying... :whistle:


The Bible passages you cite don’t support your claim that in Christianity, humans are the top pole of the hierarchy.
Matthew 6:9 gives the first line of the Lord’s Prayer:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


In this passage the person praying is clearly told to address someone greater than himself, who has power to forgive and protect. The first human wish is that a state be created on Earth that doesn’t currently exist here but which expresses the will of the greater Other.

Luke Chapter 17: (KJV)
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


In the rest of Chapter 17, Jesus likened the coming of the kingdom of God to the disasters that fell on mankind in Noah’s day, on Sodom and on Lot’s wife:

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Taken on their own, verses 20-21 seem to invoke the "Indwelling" God, but in the chapter context the Kingdom of God is presented something like a latent virus that will strike from within, without warning, indiscriminately and destructively.

There is absolutely so way that these passages contradict my position that we live part way up a hierarchy with the word “God” for the supposed top pole. The choice you offered of either agreeing with your bizarre reading of scripture, or declaring that Jesus was lying, was invalid.

Christianity, like other religions, necessarily supposes a hierarchy with mankind part way up and it’s rather atheism that places mankind at the top. According to George Maclay in “The social organism (1990)”, authorities who have seen individuals embedded in a social hierarchy include Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Baron de Montesquieu, Rousseau, Comte and Durkheim (apart from Paul and the Christian Fathers) The medieval Great Chain of Being built the animal food chain into a synoptic hierarchy but it may have only been the rise of paleontology that created space for the idea of a natural hierarchy with a creative capacity. In his1860 letter to Asa Gray Darwin expressed his sense of human position in a hierarchy with genius simplicity “A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton. In 1926 Smuts tried to formulate a general hierarchy, in “Holism and Evolution”.

So, this isn't strange or unfamiliar territory.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3126  Postby Spearthrower » May 04, 2019 12:09 pm

How methodologically sound empirical evidence messed up just-so anthropocentric creation myths.

And more importantly: how some people still refuse to accept that evidence in preference for reassuring anthropocentric traditions.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3127  Postby Alan B » May 04, 2019 12:38 pm

JJ, you haven't a bloody clue, have you? This 'prayer' is a concise set of instructions on how to reach this 'God within' that this Jesus bloke is going on about.

The Lord’s Prayer (Revised English Bible (REB); King James Version (KJV))
Dictionary definitions:
Pray: "To speak to God or a god aloud or in thought making a request or confession, giving thanks or praise, etc."
Meditate: "To empty the mind of thoughts and fix the attention on one matter."

I thought I would give the above definitions, since some theists seemed to confuse the two as though if one prays, then one is actually meditating. I believe 'Prayer' and 'Meditation' to be two totally different activities with different functions and objectives, and indeed, results. It could be said that ‘Prayer’ results in a feeling of self-satisfaction of a ‘job well-done’ - “I’ve spoken to God using His words.”, and the action of such praying can be available for all to see and take part in as a group activity. Whereas the action of meditation is exclusively internal, individually unique, private and cannot be shared.

Meditation is a singular, personal, introspective and internalised activity. The results of which can be an altered ‘mind-state’ which can only apply to, and affect, the meditator. Prayer, on the other hand, is often used by a supplicant to request help or direction from an assumed external supernatural source to solve an externalised or internalised problem. The results of which are assumptive, not tangible and not apparent with respect to overt supernatural intervention.

How & manner.
The dictionary definitions for these two words seem to complement each other in their usage but nowhere in the definitions does it suggest that they could be used to imply or be substituted for the verb ‘to say’.

In the KJV of the Bible (translated from the Latin) Jesus said to his disciples 'After this manner pray ye...' and in later translations (from the original Greek) he said 'This is how you should pray...'. (Matt. 6:9). Thus providing a concise set of instructions, a guide, on how to prepare oneself when beginning to tread the path to Spiritual Realisation.
Throughout the Christian world children are taught to say the words of the Lord's Prayer by rote and in many cases devoid of instruction about what the words actually mean. The Lord's Prayer seems to be said universally in the Christian world as a prayer of supplication, as though Jesus actually said: “When you pray to God, these are the words you shall say...”.
I would therefore suggest that writers of the Gospels and later copyists had no idea of the nature and practice of meditation and used ‘pray’ since that is all they knew about how to ‘converse' with an assumed external ‘God’.
In Matthew chapter 6:1-8 Jesus lays down the conditions under which one should ‘pray’ and help others. ‘Praying’ should be done in private and alone and without involving others - the ideal requirements for meditation, while ‘giving alms’ or helping the poor and needy, shall be done in secret without public knowledge or adulation.
But if the assumption is made that Jesus gave the instruction ‘This is how you should meditate’ so that one might reach the same ‘Anointed State’ as himself, that is, become 'a Christ' (since that seemed to be the object of his teaching), then the following interpretation seems reasonable:

Prelude
Matt. 6:1-8

Here Jesus is laying down the physical conditions under which meditation can begin while treading the path to the ‘kingdom of heaven’ in order to withdraw from the material world. This requires that one must be alone and in seclusion and without contact with others.
To join with others as a ‘prayer group’ will not lead to the mind-state of the ‘kingdom of heaven’ - Spiritual Realisation, since this mind-state is individual, internal and cannot be shared.
He is also stating that part of this process is to develop compassion for the poor and needy without an overt display of ‘giving’. Such an overt display is ‘part & parcel’ of the material world.

The Prayer
Matt. 6:9-13
“Our Father… (REB)
“Our Father… (KJV)
Here Jesus is suggesting that the ‘Anointed State’ (that to him was the ‘Spirit of God’), should be looked upon as a ‘Father’, the provider of life, the authority for living, indeed, one might say the meaning of life.

in heaven” (REB)
which art in heaven,” (KJV)
And here he is stating where this ‘Father’ resides, and where it is to be found. In Luke 17:20-21 Jesus specifically states (to the Pharisees) that the ‘Kingdom of God’ - ‘heaven’ - is not to be found ‘here or there’ (in a physical place), but is ‘among you’, ‘within you’ or ‘within your grasp’ (depending on the translation). It is an instruction to look within one’s self for this ‘Father in heaven’.

“May your name be hallowed”: (REB)
“Hallowed be thy name.” (KJV)
In meditation, to repeat a name or focussing sound as a mantra would be to think of that name or focussing sound as the ‘key’ to the ‘Father in heaven’ or the mind-state of Spiritual Realisation and in this context, making the name or sound ‘holy’. To ‘hallow’, I would suggest, is nothing less than repetition of the chosen mantra. If the phrase is taken literally, it seems reasonable to suggest that it is pointless to try to make a name ‘holy’ if in fact it is already considered to be ‘holy’.
Which makes this line pointless if said as a prayer of supplication.

“Your kingdom come” (REB)
“Thy kingdom come” (KJV)
Here he is making a statement, pure and simple: if you repeat the mantra then you are on the path to being ‘anointed’ with the ‘Spirit of God’. He is addressing an audience in the third person 'Your...', ‘Thy...’, meaning that this ‘Kingdom’ is already residing in a person. It just needs to be searched for and found by ‘hallowing’ the name (or repeating the focussing sound). He is not making a requirement that you should ask ‘God’ to send this ‘Kingdom’ just because you have told ‘God’ that his name is holy as in a prayer of supplication.
I do not think an attitude of obsequiousness was what Jesus was trying to teach.

“Your will be done on earth as in heaven” (REB)
“Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven” (KJV)
Again, this is a statement pure and simple: when the ‘Spirit of God’ is within you, that is, you have reached the ‘Anointed State’ after ‘hallowing the name’ (repeating the mantra), then your whole life will transformed. All material things will be ‘seen’ through the 'eyes' of heaven (‘Spiritual Realisation’). Life will be lived outside the normal materialistic way of living and lived apart from friends and family.* Another religion or philosophy might call this 'Nirvana' or ‘Samadhi’.
This is not a request for ‘God’ to do something as in a prayer of supplication.

*This gives meaning to Jesus’ statement: “…I have not come to bring peace but a sword…” meaning to split apart, to live a different non-materialistic life. The ‘sword’ being a metaphor well understood by the peoples of that time under the yoke of Roman occupation. (Matt. 10:34).

“Give us today our daily bread” (REB)
“Give us this day our daily bread” (KJV)
This is an exhortation from Jesus: ‘Do not delay! Begin to practice this meditation today and every day!’ The ‘daily bread’ is a metaphor for essential ‘spiritual’ food – the ‘staff of life’ in a spiritual sense. To think of it as ‘bread’ in the literal sense, as a material food, is meaningless.
This is not a request for ‘God’ to do something as in a prayer of supplication.

“Forgive us the wrong we have done, as we have forgiven those who have wronged us” (REB)
“And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” (KJV)
Another statement by Jesus. When life is being lived through the mind-state of ‘Spiritual Realisation’, we give up the material way of life and live life in a forgiving spiritual (non-materialistic) manner.
This is not a request for ‘God’ to do something as in a prayer of supplication.

(I have a problem with the use of ‘wrong’ and ‘wronged’ here in the REB. The transliteration from the Greek (http://www.scripture4all.org/) clearly says ‘debt’ and ‘debtors’ which can be a debt of kindness as well as wrongness).

Note: The use of the words ‘wrong’ and ‘wronged’ (in the REB) I feel are incorrect and are perhaps due to a mistranslation or a complete misunderstanding of this teaching. It confuses the reader by suggesting an interpretation in the material sense - “I have been wronged” or “I have done wrong to another”.
I suspect that what Jesus was intending here, that which has been translated as ‘a debt’ (KJV), is what another religion or philosophy would call ‘Karma’ which includes all ‘good’ and ‘bad’ actions and thoughts in the material world and from a materialistic way of thinking.
A person who is ‘Anointed’ or has reached ‘Spiritual Realisation’ can only live within their own spiritual thoughts, while thoughts and actions linked to the external world (‘Karma’) will have no effect on their entirely self-contained mind-state.

“And do not put us to the test, but save us from the evil one.” (REB)
“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”(KJV)
This again is an exhortation from Jesus and is simply rephrased as: ‘Don't be tempted away from the spiritual way of life by the pleasures of material things’.
The REB version implies an external being to whom one makes a request while the KJV appears to describe a behaviour to be observed.
This is not a request for ‘God’ to do something as in a prayer of supplication.

To say this ‘Lord’s Prayer’ as a prayer of supplication by repeating it ‘parrot fashion’ is futile and sterile and leads to a dullness of mind where an attitude of complacency reigns. Once the prayer is said, Christians seem to believe, then the ‘Duty to God’ has been carried out, no further action is needed. Self-satisfaction rules and nothing else outside of that 'self-satisfaction' has been, or will be, achieved or even required.

It is as though the Lord’s Prayer is treated as the instructions on a packet of ‘Holy Soup’. The ‘instructions’ are read, without knowledge gained or meaning perceived, and then the packet is put back on the shelf until the next time, ad infinitum. No one bothers to actually carry out the instructions (because they are not understood) and open the packet to make the ‘soup’ (metaphorically speaking). Instead, the instructions are used as a set-piece to be repeated by rote and treated as a means to an assumed ‘promised’ end – that is, an ‘end’ that ‘God’ will provide as an external action - if asked.

I would suggest that this ‘prayer’ is a summary by Jesus of his method (and perhaps an indication of the philosophy behind it) to reach the ‘heaven within’ where ‘God’ resides (‘Spiritual Realisation’, Nirvana, Samadhi).
If the rest of the Sermon on the Mount is read with this in mind, it begins to make more sense. Other meditation practitioners have said that they experience a feeling of ‘Infinity’, ‘Nothingness’, an overwhelming feeling of calmness and peace as well as the ‘presence of God’ (by the more religious). Each description suggests that the feelings experienced completely ‘fills’ the mind and body. Each person will describe this mind-state differently, because, in the end, we are all unique individuals.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3128  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

Never mind the various translations in other languages. The Dutch version is totally different depending which of the thousand of different churches you belong to.

Compare the catholic, c of e and the c of s for a start. The lords prayer :rofl:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3129  Postby Alan B » May 04, 2019 5:19 pm

I don't care about other language versions, Scot. It is well known that Jesus was an Englishman! :snooty:
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3130  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 04, 2019 5:30 pm

Blond hair and blue eyes of course.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3131  Postby Alan B » May 04, 2019 6:09 pm

Of course. And C of E.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3132  Postby laklak » May 04, 2019 8:14 pm

Nonsense. Jesus was 'Murikan. The proof is the Henry Repeating Rifle he's holding there.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3133  Postby Spearthrower » May 04, 2019 8:39 pm

No stetson, clearly not American!
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3134  Postby Cito di Pense » May 04, 2019 8:45 pm

laklak wrote:Nonsense. Jesus was 'Murikan. The proof is the Henry Repeating Rifle he's holding there.


What a coincidence. I just watched a Julia Sweeney skit on youtube where she tells her story about the day the two fresh-scrubbed Mormon missionaries came to her door and then tied it in with her Catholicism's cult of virginity.

Spearthrower wrote:No stetson, clearly not American!


I think in that picture, he's already gone renegade.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3135  Postby laklak » May 04, 2019 8:45 pm

Ask and ye shall receive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3136  Postby Spearthrower » May 04, 2019 8:54 pm

laklak wrote:Ask and ye shall receive.



Ahhh! Then I'm convinced!

As long as it's not an aquarium ornament, that is!
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3137  Postby theropod » May 05, 2019 2:04 am

I don’t see no cowboy hat wearin, gun totin, beer drinkin, Skoal dippin, bog block 4 WD Chevy truck drivin, listenin to rebel country rock and flippin the bird to libtard socialist idiots Jesus.

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3138  Postby laklak » May 05, 2019 2:27 am

That's cuz He loves all y'all, even the libtards. Sends 'em all to Hell to burn for eternity, but He loves 'em jes the same.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3139  Postby Spearthrower » May 05, 2019 5:54 am

theropod wrote:I don’t see no cowboy hat wearin, gun totin, beer drinkin, Skoal dippin, bog block 4 WD Chevy truck drivin, listenin to rebel country rock and flippin the bird to libtard socialist idiots Jesus.


Give a demi-God a break! It's not all work-work-work, you know?

Sometimes a son of a divine entity just wants to sit back, tip his stetson forward and give his rifle a good polishing.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#3140  Postby Caper » May 05, 2019 1:25 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
theropod wrote:I don’t see no cowboy hat wearin, gun totin, beer drinkin, Skoal dippin, bog block 4 WD Chevy truck drivin, listenin to rebel country rock and flippin the bird to libtard socialist idiots Jesus.


Give a demi-God a break! It's not all work-work-work, you know?

Sometimes a son of a divine entity just wants to sit back, tip his stetson forward and give his rifle a good polishing.


Is that what they call it now?
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