Brexit

ronmcd · **#10241** by **ronmcd** » Jan 18, 2020 11:07 pm

jamest wrote:The importance of Brexit is that it's happened, which supports the importance of Western democracy.

This sentence doesn't make sense to me.

ronmcd · **#10242** by **ronmcd** » Jan 18, 2020 11:13 pm

jamest wrote:The importance of Brexit is that it's happened, which supports the importance of Western democracy.

What's pissed me off has been how many so-called supporters of democracy were willing to undermine Brexit for their own personal needs/requirements.

What's the point in having ANY political ideology if it all boils down to: "What's in it for ME?"

We might as well resort to the law of the jungle.

Seriously.

Just realised - this is how spittle-flecked you are when you *win*

tuco · **#10243** by **tuco** » Jan 19, 2020 12:14 am

Macdoc wrote:I'm a bit skeptical of Brexit but stuff like this I think is excellent ...

U.K. farm subsidies will require efforts to support public goods, such as recreation. PETER MULLIGAN/GETTY IMAGES
United Kingdom to embark on ‘agricultural revolution’ in break from EU farm subsidies
By Erik StokstadJan. 17, 2020 , 5:10 PM
After the United Kingdom leaves the European Union at the end of the month, it will sever ties with Europe’s farm subsidy policies—and to many researchers, that is a good thing. This week, the U.K. government proposed radical changes to £3 billion a year in agricultural spending that will focus the money on benefits to climate, ecosystems, and the public. “It’s dramatic and utterly critical,” says Dieter Helm, an economist at the University of Oxford. “This is an agricultural revolution.”
more
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01 ... -subsidies

Indeed. However, as the last paragraph hints:

Other countries will be watching closely, too, says Alan Matthews, an agricultural economist at Trinity College Dublin, who studies European agricultural policy. “If it’s been successful, that will be a very powerful argument for the Europeans to follow.”

In other words, leaving subsidies as a tool with some goals alone, smaller institutions (UK) are usually able to react quicker to societal dynamics then larger ones (EU). So we will be watching and likely copy sooner or later. Pressure on environmental awareness is real these days.

ronmcd · **#10244** by **ronmcd** » Jan 19, 2020 12:24 am

Hmm.

This week, the U.K. government proposed radical changes to £3 billion a year in agricultural spending that will focus the money on benefits to climate, ecosystems, and the public.

Actually what happened was the UK govt proposed changed to England, not the UK, agriculture is devolved. But despite this of course we are affected as we are getting ripped out the EU as well as the parts that voted to leave, England and Wales.

And the positive spin in the article about "benefits to climate, ecosystems, and the public"?

“It certainly could have really positive benefits for the environment,” says Lynn Dicks, an animal ecologist at the University of Cambridge who studies wild pollinator conservation.

Or, it could be the government of Boris, Cummings, Gove etc.

ronmcd · **#10245** by **ronmcd** » Jan 19, 2020 12:24 am

Someone will benefit.

ronmcd · **#10246** by **ronmcd** » Jan 19, 2020 12:26 am

But maybe getting all huggy with the trees & celebrating the imminent green revolution might be fucking premature.

It's the Tories.

tuco · **#10247** by **tuco** » Jan 19, 2020 12:55 am

Well yes, someone will benefit and as with any political statement it should not be taken at face value, but I believe its acceptable in this case. The EU agricultural policy* is in need of evolution in my opinion.

As for UK politics, and this is just a side note, I was interested in it during Brexit, for let's say uniqueness of the case in the context of 21st-century democracy, and now it's gone, now it's just another bunch of power and money hungry, out of touch with reality, idiots with college education. So whatever.

--
edit:* with regards to the environment, probably not only the EU policy, more on the issue from my favorite blogger and Guardian columnist here: https://www.monbiot.com/?s=agriculture

ronmcd · **#10248** by **ronmcd** » Jan 19, 2020 2:09 am

The chance that the evolution in agricultural policy envisaged by this unconstrained tory govt coincides with anything George Monbiot believes ... well, it's not happening.

That EU CAP policy is and has been a mess isn't in dispute, just the intentions and honesty of this Tory government. I dont believe them for a second.

Macdoc · **#10249** by **Macdoc** » Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am

point

Pebble · **#10250** by **Pebble** » Jan 19, 2020 8:00 am

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/brexit-will-soon-have-cost-the-uk-more-than-all-of-its-payments-to-the-eu-over-the-last-47-years-put-together/ar-BBYWF39

This seems to have been snuck in very quietly.

Alan B · **#10251** by **Alan B** » Jan 19, 2020 11:34 am

ronmcd wrote:Someone will benefit.

Yep. ATAD2 and AMLD* will no longer be part of UK law allowing Tax Haven junkies and other corporate tax dodgers, who bribe the Tory party and some of its members, free reign in the corrupt UK financial system.
(Which as far as I am concerned is what Brexit is really about - a con-trick affecting the whole country).

* Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive and Anti-Money Laundering Directive.

OlivierK · **#10252** by **OlivierK** » Jan 19, 2020 5:35 pm

Spearthrower wrote:And the promises given to and by Brexiters start to be shown bullshit:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51161808

Brexit: Price rises warning after chancellor vows EU rules divergence

Wasn't post-Brexit frictionless trade with the EU supposed to be the easiest thing in human history? Going to be funny watching them try and spin this as being the EU's fault... and watching the ideological automatons spin 180 and parrot their lines.

Frictionless trade was the easiest thing in the world. All the UK needed to do was to propose staying in the Customs Union, while still leaving the EU. Sorted. Perhaps some party *cough*Labour*cough* could have taken that as a policy to an election, if only there had been one recently.

Ironclad · **#10253** by **Ironclad** » Jan 19, 2020 5:46 pm

Doesn't the customs union have an added expectation of free movement though. That's the problem for the winning vote.

tuco · **#10254** by **tuco** » Jan 19, 2020 6:10 pm

Ironclad · **#10255** by **Ironclad** » Jan 19, 2020 10:59 pm

What?

OlivierK · **#10256** by **OlivierK** » Jan 20, 2020 3:27 am

Ironclad wrote:Doesn't the customs union have an added expectation of free movement though. That's the problem for the winning vote.

Yes.

And?

People didn't vote to end their own freedom of movement, they voted to leave the EU, endorsing a Leave campaign which often referred to the possibility of a Norway-style deal (which includes customs union and freedom of movement, but without EU membership). It's the only way of delivering on the ad nauseam promises of frictionless trade. Why is accepting freedom of movement supposedly a deal breaker, but breaking the promise of frictionless trade isn't?

Ironclad · **#10257** by **Ironclad** » Jan 20, 2020 4:40 am

I'm not arguing, I'm just saying there cannot be frictionless trade without freedom of movement. The latter apparently being the deal breaker for those who brought this Brexit bollox to our doorstep. That's the fundamental right of EU citizens, says Brussels.
Brexit voters don't want freedom of movement, they want the foreigners to go away.

GrahamH · **#10258** by **GrahamH** » Jan 20, 2020 6:34 am

OlivierK wrote:

People didn't vote to end their own freedom of movement, they voted to leave the EU

Some uncertain but probably significant proportion of the vote was to reduce immigration. Millions of Turks and long lines of refugees featured prominently on the leave posters.
Although that was nonsensical it was tied up with "control out borders". It eas in May's first red lines an it hasn't gone away.

Its hard to see how this government can row back on free movement now, sadly.

GrahamH · **#10259** by **GrahamH** » Jan 20, 2020 6:45 am

So Savid Javid has announced the end of regulatory alignment and insisted that UK business el have no problem adapting because they have had three years to prepare.

What else should we expect from brexit? There is still no hint of a plan, just more uncertainty. Nothing said about what will diverge or what new regulation we may have to work to. You can't prepare for that.

Presumably uk manufacturing will keep on working to EU standards and a few may add products and processes for UK only markets.

GrahamH · **#10260** by **GrahamH** » Jan 20, 2020 9:56 am

Pub operator J D Wetherspoon is celebrating Brexit by reducing the price of ten drinks from Friday January 31.
Its ‘Let’s stay friends’ offer will give customers approximately 60p off drinks which originate in a range of European countries.
These include those in the EU; Germany, France, Spain, Poland, Holland and Ireland, as well as from across the UK.

The promotion will run until February 29 across all of the company’s 870 pubs in the UK.

https://www.jdwetherspoon.com/news/2020 ... ay-friends

Is this anything other than a bribe to customers to pretend that something good has come from Brexit and somehow made drinks cheaper when nothing has changed as yet, and avoiding increased costs will depend on agreeing a favourable FTA before the end of the year?
This must be lost profit for Weatherspoons, but like any other promotion they will hope it stimulates trade for the month.

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