Afghanistan

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Re: Afghanistan

#21  Postby Seabass » Aug 16, 2021 11:11 pm

Animavore wrote:I find it weird the Republicans are trying to frame this as a failure for Biden rather than a win for Trump. I mean this is exactly what they wanted under Trump. This is what his supporters claimed they wanted. US troops out. Why aren't they happy? Why aren't they actually praising Biden for not going against Trump?

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Re: Afghanistan

#22  Postby Animavore » Aug 16, 2021 11:54 pm

I think it shows they don't care about policy. Only that their guy wins. If Biden managed to push and sign for something like a New Green Deal by the end of his term but it ends up getting enacted by President Tucker Carlson in the next cycle I'm not suddenly going to go against my principles and then declare the New Green Deal to be a bad thing and criticise President Carlson for enacting it and become a climate denier out of spite.


There is a worry not mentioned that Afghanistan is going to become as petri dish for further covid strains due to their anti-science stance, though the US can't really criticise here, on top of the worries about women and non-Muslims in the area. There could be problems for years with them going on pilgrimages to Mecca and infecting people who will carry it back to their own countries. This has happened before.

I'm hoping things don't end up too bad for Afghanistan in the long run. It's probably time they are left to start creating their own future and destiny even if we aren't going to like it at first. I think years of intervention have been a complete failure and this outcome inevitable.
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Re: Afghanistan

#23  Postby Alan C » Aug 17, 2021 12:54 am

Well, the GOP is it currently stands has been called a post-policy party and they have been since at least Obama's two terms.
They have no policies, only a bare-faced fetish for claiming and keeping power for it's own sake.

It does look like this will turn into a hellhole for anyone that's not a male fundamentalist muslim, however, it's not the only part of the world where this is or could be an issue. It sucks and it looks to join a list of other places that suck and are in dire need of actual solutions.
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Re: Afghanistan

#24  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 17, 2021 2:38 am

Animavore wrote:I think it shows they don't care about policy. Only that their guy wins.


Tribalism hardened in the US decades ago.
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Re: Afghanistan

#25  Postby aliihsanasl » Aug 17, 2021 1:44 pm

There is a well known war reporter named Coşkun Aral here in Turkey, he was in Afghanistan in the early 90s. In an interview hes saying "Taliban was gonna execute me I hardly saved my life when some Turkish officials intervened".

The reason was one of a kind "they checked the hairs on my arms and said its not straight pointing to arms they're curved, this means you dont stroke your arms during ablution which means you dont pray daily"
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Re: Afghanistan

#26  Postby Tortured_Genius » Aug 18, 2021 2:53 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
Also seems to me, the Afghans have shown their mettle. As I write this, the going price for Afghans to abandon their posts and join the taliban is a hundred and fifty bucks. That's what they're taking to simply surrender their country.


After learning more about this, quite honestly this can be laid squarely at the door of Donald Trump. By not including the Afghan government in the "peace deal" he cut with the Taliban it was obvious to the Afghan troops on the ground that they'd be left blowing in the wind with no logistical or air support (that was being supplied by US contractors) and absolutely no political assurances for themselves or their families.

In such circumstances it's utterly unsurprising that so many would accept money and some promise possible safety for themselves and their family when the alternative was near certain death and the deaths of their loved ones. It was the only political deal the narcissistic fuckwit left for them.
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Re: Afghanistan

#27  Postby Hermit » Aug 18, 2021 3:36 pm

Tortured_Genius wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
Also seems to me, the Afghans have shown their mettle. As I write this, the going price for Afghans to abandon their posts and join the taliban is a hundred and fifty bucks. That's what they're taking to simply surrender their country.


After learning more about this, quite honestly this can be laid squarely at the door of Donald Trump. By not including the Afghan government in the "peace deal" he cut with the Taliban it was obvious to the Afghan troops on the ground that they'd be left blowing in the wind with no logistical or air support (that was being supplied by US contractors) and absolutely no political assurances for themselves or their families.

In such circumstances it's utterly unsurprising that so many would accept money and some promise possible safety for themselves and their family when the alternative was near certain death and the deaths of their loved ones. It was the only political deal the narcissistic fuckwit left for them.

It's bit more complicated than that. Today's clusterfuck was decades in the making.

Without
  • the Soviet Union's warfare in Afghanistan turning into indiscriminate killings of civilians and intentional maiming of children
  • the US's massive support of the Taliban's predecessors
  • the Saudi Arabian finance of 2000 madrassas
there would have been no Taliban in the first place.



I also think the decision by president Bush to invade Afghanistan instead of punishing Saudi Arabia (and perhaps Pakistan) for the 9/11 terrorism was a grievous mistake.
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Re: Afghanistan

#28  Postby arugula2 » Aug 18, 2021 10:41 pm

^ 9/11 was a green light for one of several influence campaigns in the region. The war to “defeat AQ” and then “defeat Taliban” in Afghanistan is only coherent as a media narrative. Lots of dense ties pulling the US war machinery in that direction since the 90s.

I’m really curious what punishing S.Arabia even sounds like, in the situation room. It’s probably a mumbled half-joke once every five years or so, and then move on to serious business.

Re: The_Metatron’s comment about them surrendering their country… some ppl already mention some cultural notions of ‘country’ that don’t really translate here. But even in that Westphalian mind frame: Afghan national troops ceding control to the Taliban is closer to a ‘claiming’ of their country than a ‘surrendering’, given that the paymasters who just abandoned them & the supervisors who’d just trained & equipped them, are foreigners. Yes, surrender is surrender, but they’re surrendering to Afghans, who just finished taking the country from foreign occupiers. (Something unfolding in plain sight for over a decade, except in the western press. So the vast majority of army recruits over the past decade probably saw it as a temporary job anyway.) The American (western) framing is simply wrong on every level.
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Re: Afghanistan

#29  Postby arugula2 » Aug 18, 2021 10:59 pm

Ties with China & Russia will probably be both a stabilizing influence and a slow & ugly path to long-term development, something not in the cards while DC & London ran things. Much more interesting imo is what will come out of the relationship with big brother Iran to the west. Also, even if every other European embassy closes in the short term (some might not close at all), several will likely open again, barring some calculated maneuver from the WH aimed at making that impossible (and if so, only to save face electorally). All in all, the smaller the NATO footprint, the better for Afghans. An outcome more pluralistic and less oppressive than [pick a central Asian country at random] isn’t likely, but ppl should disabuse themselves of any notion that the invasion & occupation was a project to achieve that - either going in or in retrospect. Nobody weeps for Uzbeks and Turkmens - Afghanistan is just the thing most have been made to cope with because the media suddenly remembered to pay attention. It’ll pass.
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Re: Afghanistan

#30  Postby Tortured_Genius » Sep 17, 2021 8:52 pm

All I can say is "Ugh, horrible".

The very worst PR for USA during and after the retreat: Afghanistan: US admits Kabul drone strike killed civilians (BBC).

Short version - US intelligence fucked up and identified an aid worker as a suicide bomber and killed him and most of his family (including 7 kids) who were waiting for evacuation to the US as the parents had been working as interpreters.

Totally unsurprising given the reports on the ground at the time (there was a BBC reporter on site within hours of the attack and from the news reports it was obvious something pretty horrible had happened). It'll be interesting to see if and how this gets reported and spun in the USA.
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Re: Afghanistan

#31  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 18, 2021 8:03 pm

The regressive mongrels are acting to type by re-establishing the morality police to beat women in public, and denying girls an education.
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Re: Afghanistan

#32  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 19, 2021 7:52 pm

Women civil servants told not to go to work if a man can do their job - specified instances of approved jobs for female civil servants: cleaning women's toilets because men can't enter such rooms.
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Re: Afghanistan

#33  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 26, 2021 6:26 pm

Ban on beard cutting in place. Good to know they've got their priorities in order. Fucking mongrels.
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Re: Afghanistan

#34  Postby Tortured_Genius » Sep 26, 2021 7:46 pm

Spearthrower wrote:Ban on beard cutting in place. Good to know they've got their priorities in order. Fucking mongrels.


Now, now. They only announced that after starting executions and amputations and stringing up the corpses of alleged criminals in city squares.

Friday: Afghanistan: Executions will return, says senior Taliban official (BBC)

Saturday: Afghanistan: Taliban hang bodies as warning in city of Herat (BBC)

Sunday: Afghanistan: Taliban ban Helmand barbers from trimming beards (BBC)

As you can see, all quite moderate, restrained and proper for this year of 1443, I'm sure you agree (and if you are in Afghanistan and don't agree, they'll kill you in a restrained and moderate manner because they are not at all like they were 20 years ago).
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Re: Afghanistan

#35  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Sep 26, 2021 8:05 pm

I still suspect that if the USA had just dropped bundles of dollars instead of bombs the war would have been over much sooner and for a fraction of the cost.
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

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Re: Afghanistan

#36  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 27, 2021 1:57 am

Tortured_Genius wrote:
Now, now. They only announced that after starting executions and amputations and stringing up the corpses of alleged criminals in city squares.


They presumably didn't like the sight of corpses swinging on gibbets absent the requisite facial hair decreed by the creator of the universe.
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Re: Afghanistan

#37  Postby Tortured_Genius » Sep 29, 2021 11:45 am

Afghanistan: 'My young sister will be forced to marry a Taliban fighter' (BBC)

She's 12 apparently, so of an age to stop school and start breeding jihadis. All quite moderate and proper.
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Re: Afghanistan

#38  Postby Alan C » Oct 03, 2021 11:11 pm

Pakistan's PM appears to have said that sooner or later the Taliban will have to be recognised.
Fine, I recognise that they are a bunch of goat-buggering, homicidally-intolerant, misogynistic, iron-age stains on the human species. The truly shitty thing is that even they are not the worst in the area presently.
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Re: Afghanistan

#39  Postby Matt_B » Oct 05, 2021 3:45 am

Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE were the three countries who recognized the Taliban during their previous regime. I expect they'll do so again once the dust has settled. The first two played a big part in getting them into power in the first place and the UAE are the deal brokers of the Islamic world and where most of the leaders who fled are now domiciled.

I dare say that dealing with the Taliban is less eyebrow-raising for countries where a good chunk of their population shares similar Islamic views but there are also pragmatic considerations like trade and border security.

I can't see the Taliban getting much recognition from outside the Islamic world though. When even basic preconditions - like renouncing terrorism and recognizing women's rights - would almost certainly be rebuffed that's not going to happen. Even the likes of China and Russia know that's a bad look.

It just goes to show how shitty the government the US was propping up for two decades must have been. The few Afghans I've known have been very patriotic, but nobody was going to lay down their life for those guys.
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Re: Afghanistan

#40  Postby Sgt Kelly » Oct 06, 2021 3:12 pm

I don't know how independent these guys really are, but it's well worth a watch. Dates from 2013 if I'm not mistaken.

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