The Obligatory 9/11 Thread Part II

Agi Hammerthief · **#9681** by **Agi Hammerthief** » Sep 20, 2021 6:46 pm

psikeyhackr wrote:
Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass."

Claiming something and proving it are two different things.

If they won't even talk about how steel had to be distributed in a structure that supported itself for 25 years I am not about to just BELIEVE.

In the places the structure was distributed as designed it held up just fine, even while it was already collapsing in other places;
why discuss it in more detail than NIST NCSTAR 1-1?

What happend when things got redistributed by airliner is discussed in NIST NCSTAR 1-2 and NIST NCSTAR 1-6.

the ‚distribution‘ in the downward progressing collapse zone looked so chaotic it’s beyond discussion but obviously not fit for supporting anything.

A big jumble of steel and concrete settling (well, trying to) on a self supporting structure that simply wasn’t designed to take up that kind of load.
are you really surprised that it didn’t hold?

psikeyhackr · **#9682** by **psikeyhackr** » Sep 29, 2021 8:18 pm

Agi Hammerthief wrote:
psikeyhackr wrote:
Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass."

Claiming something and proving it are two different things.

If they won't even talk about how steel had to be distributed in a structure that supported itself for 25 years I am not about to just BELIEVE.

In the places the structure was distributed as designed it held up just fine, even while it was already collapsing in other places;
why discuss it in more detail than NIST NCSTAR 1-1?

Because it actually is not discussed in NCSTAR1.

How many tons of steel were in level 1?. How many in 90? I don't know. YOU don't know.

You are merely saying that YOU don't need to know in order to BELIEVE.

felltoearth · **#9683** by **felltoearth** » Sep 29, 2021 11:59 pm

Starts at page 6

https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get ... _id=101000

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Agi Hammerthief · **#9684** by **Agi Hammerthief** » Sep 30, 2021 5:51 am

psikeyhackr wrote:You are merely saying that YOU don't need to know in order to BELIEVE.

that is a lie:
I‘ve explained exactly why I don’t need the distribution multiple times now.
That’s not the reason, if you can focus on a supposed lack of information for 20 years, you should be able to remember explanations given a few days earlier.
so stop lyinng. :naughty:

And if you honestly can’t remember the point made 13 days ago, maybe you should just leave the debate in the firm knowledge that you are way smarter than the rest of the world.

felltoearth wrote:Starts at page 6
https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get ... _id=101000
[…]

he‘s probably now talking about the outer and inner columns again:
They are thicker at the bottom than at the top. Has been explained at him, why this information is irrelevant, before of cause.

felltoearth · **#9685** by **felltoearth** » Sep 30, 2021 2:00 pm

He was also asking about material distribution including concrete. It’s all there. He clearly lacks the expertise and knowledge to tease it out.

Imagine spending all that time flogging a hobby horse and wasting 20 years in ignorance.

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The_Metatron · **#9686** by **The_Metatron** » Sep 30, 2021 3:00 pm

There will certainly be something along the lines of "Oh yeah? But, but, but..."

One has to stammer and throw up a diversion while moving goalposts.

psikeyhackr · **#9687** by **psikeyhackr** » Oct 04, 2021 9:42 pm

First off let us assume a few facts. First, there were 450,000 cubic yards of concrete used in the construction of the towers. Second, there were 200,000 tons of steel used in the construction.
Each tower weighed in at 500,000 tons for a total weight of 1,000,000 tons. We know that there were 200,000 tons of steel, but how much does concrete weigh?

I did a google search asking that same question, answer: wet 3,900 lbs per cubic yard. Cured 3,500-3,700 lbs per cubic yard. So a little math 450,000*3,600=1,620,000,000lbs or 810,000 tons. A little more math 200,000(steel)+810,000(concrete)=1,010,000tons divided by 2 towers equals 505,000 tons. Pretty close huh?

It is safe to assume that all of the concrete was used in the construction of the towers.

Now, how much concrete was used on each floor? We know the dimension's of the building were 208'x208'. Since concrete is measured in cubic yards we need to convert this to yards. 208 divided by 3 equals 69.03 yards. Now how thick are the floors? I used an average 4 inches for the floor and to convert that to yards we divide 4 by 36 resulting in .111. Now to figure cubic yards 69*69*.111=528.471 cubic yards per floor. 110 floors per tower 220*528.471=116,263.620 cubic yards.

We are missing a whole lot of concrete. Where did it go?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/d ... =125x71293

The Twin Towers were famous, iconic buildings. More than a million visitors viewed New York City from the observation deck every year. Brochures existed providing specifications on the towers for years before 9/11. So how do multiple sources provide a total for the concrete but the NIST can't do it.

More than 425,000 cubic yards of concrete were required to construct the World Trade Center, enough to pave a sidewalk from New York City to Washington, D.C.

At least seven foundries supplied more than 200,000 tons of structural steel for the construction of the World Trade Center—

https://www.911memorial.org/learn/resou ... nd-figures

https://www.foxnews.com/story/world-trade-center-facts

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/EricChen.shtml

https://science.howstuffworks.com/engin ... unique.htm

https://exhibitions.nysm.nysed.gov/wtc/about/facts.html

You keep finding trivial data about the floors but don't find where the total for the concrete in the NIST report.

But you won't admit it ain't there.
[771349]

felltoearth · **#9688** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 10:17 pm

Three foot thick walls 70feet high over a 16 acre site just to form the bathtub.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bathtub

psikeyhackr wrote:

It is safe to assume that all of the concrete was used in the construction of the towers.

I wouldn’t assume that at all.

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felltoearth · **#9689** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 10:35 pm

The bathtub is 65000 sq m which about 700,000 sq ft.

Thats 2,100,000 cubic feet of concrete or 77,777 cu yds in the bottom of the bathtub alone.

The walls were a total length of about 3000 feet conservatively and 70 feet high and three feet thick.

Doing the math that’s about 23,000 cubic yards.

So about 110,000 cu yds total on the conservative side.

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felltoearth · **#9690** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 10:37 pm

You are also missing the concrete for the elevator core and the stairs.

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psikeyhackr · **#9691** by **psikeyhackr** » Oct 04, 2021 10:47 pm

felltoearth wrote:You are also missing the concrete for the elevator core and the stairs.

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I am not the one trying to explain anything.

I am pointing out that the explanation is lacking along with the data necessary to do a competent analysis.

You are just spewing B.S. and helping to maintain confusion.

felltoearth · **#9692** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 11:02 pm

Scratch the elevator core walls. They were made of gypsum planks and covered in drywall.

However,

Each of the basement levels had large concrete spandrel beams, structural slabs with an additional concrete topping and I believe the tower columns were also encased.

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felltoearth · **#9693** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 11:02 pm

I’m sure if I keep digging around I’ll find more concrete.

Not sure where the 425,000 cu yard figure came from though. I can’t find a reference for that.

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felltoearth · **#9694** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 11:24 pm

More concrete.

Each tower had massive continuous footings for the columns to rest on.

Additionally, it seems there were structural slabs that ran from the tower perimeter to the 3’ slurry wall.

Also, the subway tunnels were supported by concrete caissons

Some Articles From Engineering News Record.

To support the tubes as the earth was removed from under them, the contractor installed a line of 24-inch diameter caissons 40 to 50 ft c-c on either side of each tube. These were socketed into rock 2 ft below final subgrade, cleaned, and filled with a steel core and concrete before any excavation was done.

So I can keep looking. That was less than an hour on the internet. You’ve been at this twenty years. What exactly have you been doing with your time?

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felltoearth · **#9695** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 11:42 pm

By the way, just to let you know my credentials.

I have designed and executed many landscapes on top of parking garage structures.

Surrey Civic Centre (the hotel tower is obscuring part of the plaza)

Edmonton Federal Plaza

The Rejuvenation of Toronto City Hall and Nathan Phillips Square

And my upcoming project. A landscaped plaza, pocket garden, Streetscape, and green roofs on three levels of a new academic building and residence for Ryerson University. It will be built here in this parking lot.

I work reeeeallly closely with structural engineers to get these projects realized. I know a few things about how these structures are designed and built. You, sadly, are out of your depth here.

Twenty fucking years.

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felltoearth · **#9696** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 11:46 pm

psikeyhackr wrote:
felltoearth wrote:You are also missing the concrete for the elevator core and the stairs.

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I am not the one trying to explain anything.

I am pointing out that the explanation is lacking along with the data necessary to do a competent analysis.

You are just spewing B.S. and helping to maintain confusion.

You fucking asked where the concrete went. I’m delivering the goods for you.

What a pathetic waste of a life you lead.

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felltoearth · **#9697** by **felltoearth** » Oct 04, 2021 11:52 pm

psikeyhackr wrote:

We are missing a whole lot of concrete. Where did it go?

I’m giving you a shit ton of clues where it went you pathetic troll.

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psikeyhackr · **#9698** by **psikeyhackr** » Oct 05, 2021 1:39 am

felltoearth wrote:
psikeyhackr wrote:

We are missing a whole lot of concrete. Where did it go?

I’m giving you a shit ton of clues where it went you pathetic troll.

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Claiming that it was outside of the towers is not a clue.

Who is claiming that any of the 200,000 tons of steel was outside of the building?

You don't know anything and have nothing meaningful to say.

felltoearth · **#9699** by **felltoearth** » Oct 05, 2021 1:52 am

The Bathtub and the foundations are part of the development. Show the source for your 425,000 cu yard claim. There is nothing at the links you provided. There is nothing saying the concrete was only used in the towers. Just your “safe assumption” i.e your own confirmation bias.

You lose.

Pathetic.

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Agi Hammerthief · **#9700** by **Agi Hammerthief** » Oct 05, 2021 6:05 am

psikeyhackr wrote:
I am pointing out that the explanation is lacking along with the data necessary to do a competent analysis.

the incarnation of incompetence on this (i.e.: you) is murmuring about „a competent analysis“
you haven‘t got a fucking clue.

psikeyhackr wrote:You don't know anything and have nothing meaningful to say.

projection much?

what you are doing is the equivalent of sitting in a padded room going
„weNEEDmoreDATA :wall:

weNEEDmoreDATA :wall:

“

psikeyhackr wrote:We are missing a whole lot of concrete. Where did it go?

I‘ve got an idea:
They hid it in the attic!1
Where nobody noticed it for 28years!!1!

or maybe it just got embezzled :think: