Extinction Rebellion are on point.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#661  Postby felltoearth » Sep 24, 2021 4:26 pm

Hard to argue against this. What happens when you combine green washing with imperialism.

Why I refuse to collude with polluters in the carbon offsetting lie
Big polluters that have continuously failed to stop their business models pumping out carbon or driving deforestation are now hoping they can simply throw money at the problem to make it go away.

That ‘away’ they’re relying on – through a reliance on carbon offsetting to deliver their net zero claims – is the Global South. It’s the forests whose indigenous stewards are already fighting deadly battles to defend their rights. It’s the lands of communities who are already on the frontline of devastating climate impacts. It’s the ecosystems that need enforceable protections through laws won at home – not an accounting trick in a corporate spreadsheet.   

No matter how much Shell’s net zero scenarios count on the creation of ‘Brazil-sized forests’, the Global South is not a blank space for polluters to fill with trees that serve their interests, rather than the species, nourishment and self-determination of the local area. Offsetting has a long history of not actually reducing overall levels of carbon, while exacerbating problems over land rights, food security and biodiversity across the majority of the world – in countries that have the least responsibility for driving the climate crisis.  



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Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#662  Postby felltoearth » Sep 24, 2021 4:27 pm

..
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#663  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 24, 2021 4:53 pm

Off-setting works exactly like sweeping shit under the rug works.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#664  Postby Macdoc » Sep 24, 2021 8:06 pm

You'd be wrong but no convincing the entrenched. :coffee:

Perhaps you'd like to argue your point with David Suzuki
https://davidsuzuki.org/what-you-can-do/carbon-offsets/

Carbon reduction of any form is valuable and it's just one more tool to achieve that as the world attempts carbon neutral.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#665  Postby THWOTH » Sep 24, 2021 9:06 pm

The recent IPCC special report identified only one pathway to keeping temps under 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels: a massive reduction in C02 emission in the next 8 years: a reduction of 45% from 2010 levels by 2030 . Waiting for the future to solve yesterday's problem is no longer an option, and expecting market solutions like Carbon trading or offsetting to significantly contribute is naive.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#666  Postby Macdoc » Sep 24, 2021 11:56 pm

What is naive is thinking 1.5c will be avoided.....or even 2.0.

Every bit of carbon reduction helps and relying on a single massive effort worldwide is very the definition of naive thinking.
Mitigating the climate problem will require " a million Manhattan projects" to quote a guy on the levers of the monetary system needed.
From less meat to more renewables, EVs to reforestation it will take a broad front
...expecting politicians to execute this alone is just ludicrous wishful thinking. :coffee:
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#667  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 25, 2021 3:34 am

Macdoc wrote:You'd be wrong but no convincing the entrenched. :coffee:


Well, it might help if you actually tried convincing rather than engineering a scenario that assumes you're correct without offering anything to support your position.


Macdoc wrote:Perhaps you'd like to argue your point with David Suzuki


Perhaps you'd like to explain why I would want to argue any point with someone I don't know, don't care about, and who isn't here?


Macdoc wrote:https://davidsuzuki.org/what-you-can-do/carbon-offsets/


Your own link says:

The price per tonne of offsets, however, is far below the estimated costs of damage that a tonne of carbon pollution will cause via global warming and ocean acidification.



Macdoc wrote:Carbon reduction of any form is valuable and it's just one more tool to achieve that as the world attempts carbon neutral.


Carbon offsets explicitly are not carbon reduction in ANY form. The same amount of carbon is generated, regardless. What we need is an actual reduction in the production of atmospheric carbon, not sleight of hand accounting that makes it look like we're doing something other than business as usual.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#668  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 25, 2021 3:35 am

THWOTH wrote:The recent IPCC special report identified only one pathway to keeping temps under 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels: a massive reduction in C02 emission in the next 8 years: a reduction of 45% from 2010 levels by 2030 . Waiting for the future to solve yesterday's problem is no longer an option, and expecting market solutions like Carbon trading or offsetting to significantly contribute is naive.

https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/


Wholly agreed, and hi Thwothmeister - good to see ya! :)
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#669  Postby Macdoc » Sep 25, 2021 4:36 am

So you will let gov solve it and take no action of your own?
Only one pathway is a crock.
It is the goal ...there are more pathways leading to the goal.

Here are two that do not require reduced emissions. ( tho that is part of the solution indeed )

CO₂ removal can be done in two ways.
The first is by enhancing carbon storage in natural ecosystems, such as planting more forests or storing more carbon in soil.
(see offsets )
The second is by using direct air capture (DAC) technology that strips CO₂ from the ambient air, then either stores it underground or turns it into products.


snip
In fact, most climate model scenarios show we’ll need to remove billions of metric tons of carbon dioxide annually by 2050, while also ramping up emissions reductions.


https://www.wri.org/insights/6-ways-rem ... lution-sky


There is no requirement to wait on future tech ....most of it is available now on in some areas being put into play.
Offsets are a way to fund those efforts while getting your own carbon footprint down.

Reducing emmissions AND removing carbon, natural and technological are the two main paths.

Outliers are geo-engineered solutions...which may indeed be necessary...and with risk.

What if it’s too late to save our planet without geoengineering?
Moira Donegan
Climate engineering sounds scary. But is coming whether we like it or not, this scientist says
‘The two main types of geoengineering are carbon engineering, which aims to suck carbon out of the atmosphere, and solar engineering, which aims to reflect solar energy away from Earth.’
Thu 26 Aug 2021 20.22 AEST


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ngineering
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#670  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 25, 2021 6:29 am

Macdoc wrote:So you will let gov solve it and take no action of your own?



Kindly point out where I said anything that could be construed as the above.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#671  Postby hackenslash » Sep 25, 2021 8:00 am

Still think fusion is the only viable solution.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#672  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Sep 25, 2021 8:18 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Macdoc wrote:So you will let gov solve it and take no action of your own?
Kindly point out where I said anything that could be construed as the above.

The entire post sounds like it.
Sounds like what I get from my co worker who has no kids and a big car.
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#673  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 25, 2021 11:26 am

Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Macdoc wrote:So you will let gov solve it and take no action of your own?
Kindly point out where I said anything that could be construed as the above.


The entire post sounds like it.



I don't understand: you're saying that all my post sounds like I want to leave the government to solve all climate related issues while I taken no action at all to mediate my own carbon footprint?

If that's what you mean, I really would like to see how you draw a line from one to the other because I made no mention of any of this at all.


Agi Hammerthief wrote:Sounds like what I get from my co worker who has no kids and a big car.


I've never even owned a driving license.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#674  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Sep 25, 2021 11:47 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Macdoc wrote:So you will let gov solve it and take no action of your own?
Kindly point out where I said anything that could be construed as the above.


The entire post sounds like it.


I don't understand: you're saying that all my post sounds like I want to leave the government to solve all climate related issues while I taken no action at all to mediate my own carbon footprint?

that’s a goal post shift:
you asked about one specific post, I answered about one specific post.
Now you ask about posting history.

Agi Hammerthief wrote:Sounds like what I get from my co worker who has no kids and a big car.

I've never even owned a driving license.

entirely not the point, it’s not all about you.
I was just letting you know why that post sounded like it did to me:
Behause I‘ve heard that tune from the „my lifestyle is more important than your kids future“ brigade.
It’s supposed to be a friendly hint what type of argument or had waving you might want to avoid.
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#675  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 25, 2021 12:10 pm

Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Kindly point out where I said anything that could be construed as the above.


The entire post sounds like it.


I don't understand: you're saying that all my post sounds like I want to leave the government to solve all climate related issues while I taken no action at all to mediate my own carbon footprint?

that’s a goal post shift:
you asked about one specific post, I answered about one specific post.
Now you ask about posting history.


:eh:

Now I am really confused. Where exactly is there a goalpost shift? :eh:

I am still talking about the same post, and didn't mention anything about posting history.

Can we not discuss things I write, rather than things I don't write?


Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Agi Hammerthief wrote:Sounds like what I get from my co worker who has no kids and a big car.

I've never even owned a driving license.

entirely not the point, it’s not all about you.


What....? :ask:

Your contention about what my post said is not about me? So who IS it about?


Agi Hammerthief wrote:I was just letting you know why that post sounded like it did to me:


And I asked you to explain why it sounded like that and yet you've still not explained how or why.


Agi Hammerthief wrote:Behause I‘ve heard that tune from the „my lifestyle is more important than your kids future“ brigade.


You've heard 'what tune'?

I honestly don't think you've yet addressed anything I've written, but seem to be talking a lot about things I've not written.


Agi Hammerthief wrote:It’s supposed to be a friendly hint what type of argument or had waving you might want to avoid.


Well then, how about you stop flapping your gums mate and quote explicitly where I said anything at all about wanting the government to solve climate issues while I do nothing. That is supposed to be what I said, and supposed to be what you're criticizing about my post, but even though you've said that's what you've taken from my post, as it factually isn't in my post, then you need to actually explain how you're coming to that position. At best reading, this is a misunderstanding on your part, but given how coy you seem to be with respect to explaining yourself, I can't help to solve that misunderstanding.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#676  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 25, 2021 12:19 pm

Aha... I can at least solve one misunderstanding here:

Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Macdoc wrote:So you will let gov solve it and take no action of your own?
Kindly point out where I said anything that could be construed as the above.


The entire post sounds like it.



Spearthrower wrote:

I don't understand: you're saying that all my post sounds like....



Agi Hammerthief wrote:that’s a goal post shift:
you asked about one specific post, I answered about one specific post.
Now you ask about posting history.


When I said 'all my post' - I wasn't referring to my entire posting history, but rather using 'all' as a synonym for the word 'entire' that you used, ergo that the entirety of my post sounded like X.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#677  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Agi Hammerthief wrote:Behause I‘ve heard that tune from the „my lifestyle is more important than your kids future“ brigade.



Spearthrower wrote:Carbon offsets explicitly are not carbon reduction in ANY form. The same amount of carbon is generated, regardless. What we need is an actual reduction in the production of atmospheric carbon, not sleight of hand accounting that makes it look like we're doing something other than business as usual.



This is the tune you hear from people who believe maintaining their lifestyle is more important than the future of the planet?

You're misrepresenting me, Agi.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#678  Postby hackenslash » Sep 25, 2021 12:44 pm

Carbon offsets might have been a good idea ten or twenty years ago, as a means of flattening the curve while better solutions were found, but we're pretty much beyond piecemeal, band-aid solutions now, because the climate is a gaping wound. They could conceivably have slowed AGW sufficiently to buy us a few decades of research into carbon-neutral energy. As it is, they're little more than gesture politics.

Better than nothing is about the best you can say about them.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#679  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Sep 25, 2021 5:01 pm

Spearthrower wrote:You're misrepresenting me, Agi.

I‘ll try to sort it out tomorrow, had a long day and a few drinks before I read this.
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#680  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 25, 2021 5:27 pm

Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:You're misrepresenting me, Agi.

I‘ll try to sort it out tomorrow, had a long day and a few drinks before I read this.


No worries. I was just genuinely trying to understand your point and why you thought I said something vastly different than I'd intended.
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