Joseph of Arimathea

... was he a real person?

Christianity, Islam, Other Religions & Belief Systems.

Moderators: kiore, The_Metatron, Blip

Joseph of Arimathea

#1  Postby TopCat » Dec 02, 2021 1:02 pm

I follow the threads about Jesus' historicity, although most of it is above my pay grade.

This is about Joseph of Arimathea, whose appearance on the scene after the crucifixion and provision of a handy tomb is convenient to the story, to say the least.

Afterwards he seems to disappear from the scene, and pops up again in legends much later.

Do the NT historians of this parish have much knowledge about his historicity, or otherwise?
TopCat
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 819
Age: 59
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Joseph of Arimathea

#2  Postby felltoearth » Dec 03, 2021 4:38 am

Carrier has a take.

Ms. Christian Apologist on Empty Tomb Stuff • Richard Carrier
That leaves one more argument they tangled over: the plausibility of Mark’s adding Joseph of Arimathea to the story, which detail the subsequent Gospels borrowed and embellished on. On this again, both of them are wrong. Nearly everything Another Atheist says here is incorrect. He confuses the invention of the character in Mark, with later redactions of the character that made his role increasingly more fabulous. And his assumptions are wrong, e.g., per my discussion on the last point, the Sanhedrin likely already would have buried Jesus that day, and Pilate would have permitted it as a matter of course. Joseph of Arimathea isn’t needed to fill any plot holes. Rather, he simply isn’t needed at all. Which is almost as suspicious.

The role Joseph’s character plays, like most invented characters in ancient religious fiction, is symbolic and allegorical. His actions, his description, his function, all convey meaning about the gospel, and flesh out the story from popular Jewish and heroic parallels. An Arimathea didn’t exist so far as we know. And the Greek is suspiciously convenient in meaning, “Best Doctrinetown,” as in the most educating and most edifying, where the best disciples come from. That he isn’t a disciple was originally Mark’s point. Mark’s Gospel repeatedly deploys irony, reversing expectations by, for example, having Jesus tell Simon Peter he had to take up his cross and follow him, and then having a different Simon, a total stranger and a foreigner, actually do so. Mark does the same thing by reversing the social expectation that a disciple of Jesus would see to his burial, by instead having a total stranger do so, who is secretly “called” a disciple, with the fake town he comes from.

Later Gospel authors erased the irony and just explicitly made Joseph a secret disciple. And that’s the kind of thing you have to look out for when trying to grapple with the Gospels. You can’t explain why Joseph of Arimathea was made up, by looking at later redactions of his story. You have to look at the original creation of the character. In other words, only what Mark says matters, for understanding where this character came from. Later Gospels, redacting Mark, borrowed and reused the character; you can explore why they made the changes they did, which will tell you something about those authors and their purposes, but it won’t tell you why the character was contrived the first place.

For Mark, Joseph serves a simple function of teaching the gospel through the necessary stage of burying Jesus according to the creed. Joseph’s story is absurdly brief, and completely unexplained (Mark 15:43-46). We aren’t told who even knew who he was, or why it matters who he was; no witness ever speaks to him, nor he to any author; his motives are either unexplored or unrealistic; he appears out of nowhere without explanation, and disappears completely from history the instant his single function is done. Indeed, his total disappearance from history is especially bizarre, for a lot of reasons (see OHJ, Chapter 9.2).



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 14380
Age: 54

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Joseph of Arimathea

#3  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 03, 2021 3:48 pm

Another phantom. Waddya know? The religious, making shit up.

Making shit up so casually, as if they knew as they were writing it, that it is all a lie. As they were fucking writing it.
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 21340
Age: 58
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Joseph of Arimathea

#4  Postby BlackBart » Dec 03, 2021 5:04 pm

He liked to holiday in Cornwall. Obviously.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8380511.stm
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Name: rotten bart
Posts: 12516
Age: 59
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Joseph of Arimathea

#5  Postby Matt_B » Dec 03, 2021 8:26 pm

He makes an appearance in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

That's about as real as any of this, I suppose.
User avatar
Matt_B
 
Posts: 4715
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Joseph of Arimathea

#6  Postby felltoearth » Dec 04, 2021 4:21 am

BlackBart wrote:He liked to holiday in Cornwall. Obviously.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8380511.stm

Fuck! He went to Glastonbury!
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 14380
Age: 54

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Joseph of Arimathea

#7  Postby BlackBart » Dec 04, 2021 11:47 am

I'm surprised he managed to get tickets. :coffee:
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Name: rotten bart
Posts: 12516
Age: 59
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Joseph of Arimathea

#8  Postby felltoearth » Dec 04, 2021 8:18 pm

:D


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 14380
Age: 54

Canada (ca)
Print view this post


Return to Theism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 0 guests