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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1101  Postby newolder » Dec 10, 2021 4:18 pm

If each picture is 1k words then 1 red picture + 1 green picture + 1 blue picture is 3k words.

With a couple of caveats like - If a "picture" cannot contain an earlier picture and something about a common ancestor :scratch: - we have, at minimum, Tree(3)k words. :think:

I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1102  Postby don't get me started » Dec 11, 2021 1:21 am

It seems to me that any investigation of the phenomenon called color can be usefully divided into three parts. Firstly, there is that part of our understanding that belongs in the realm of physics. This is challenging and I can’t claim to have gone more than ankle deep in my readings here. I found the book by Arthur Zajonc to be a good introduction to the history of light and our human attempts to understand what this thing is.

Secondly there is the domain of physiology. That is, the actual processes by which the human organism processes the external stimulus of light, and how our brain works to make sense of this stimulus. Again, I can’t claim anything beyond layman’s understanding of this, but I found the book ‘Basic Vision’ by Snowden, Thompson and Trsocianco a very thorough and immensely readable volume. Highly recommended for anyone who wants to delve a little deeper into the human visual faculty.

Thirdly, we enter the arena of language and culture. Here I can claim to have waded out a little bit further and read around the issue it a little bit more depth, and an interesting story it is. The story is well told in Guy Deutcher’s book ‘Through the Language Glass.’ I’ll give a brief overview here.

So, in the 19th century, William Gladstone, apart from being a Prime Minister, was also a renowned classical scholar who apparently always has a copy of the Iliad to hand (in Greek, of course). During his analysis of the text he noticed something odd. The color terms used by Homer were a bit off. The sea was always ‘wine dark’ and no mention of blue. Not anywhere in the whole epic. Black is mentioned 170 times, white 100 times, red 13 times and yellow and green 10 times each. But no blue. Honey was described as green and altogether there was a lot of vagueness and circumlocution when it came to describing the color of things during the siege of Troy. Gladstone proposed a theory of color in which civilization gradually increased the stock of color words, the increase taking place in a predictable order.

Later, a German philologist rejoicing in the name Lazarus Geiger started looking around at other ancient texts like the Vedas, the Hebrew Bible, the Icelandic sagas and found a similar pattern when it came to color terminology. Black and white were always there, followed next by red, then green and yellow. Blue always brought up the rear.

Fast forward to the 20th century and we come to the landmark study by Berlin and Kay (1969) that looked at color terminology in a variety of languages around the world and came up with their theory of color terms. Although not without its critics (Hey, it’s academia, what do you expect?) the theory has proven influential. Basically, the theory sees the emergence of color terms as unfolding according to a fairly predictable sequence. At stage 1 a language will have just two color terms- something like light and dark. Next comes red. Then either green or yellow, then both green and yellow. Stage V is blue, stage VI is brown then stage VII adds purple, pink, orange or gray. The idea is that if a language has a color term at any stage, then it will also possess color terms for all of the previous stages. I.e. if you have a word for blue, you will also have words for black, white, red, green and yellow. As I say, the academics have had a decades long bun fight over this, but whatever the case, it is clear that different languages divide up the visual spectrum in quite different ways.

The go to example in the literature is the case of Russian blue. (Actually, it is more accurate to say Russian blues.)

So, in English there is what we can call ‘focal blue’ which is the color that people would choose if asked to point to a best example of ‘blue’. If we add more black we move towards navy blue or dark blue. If we add more white we start to get light blue. Like this:

Dark blue------------Blue-----------Light blue

In Russian the system works differently. Where English has the compound form ‘dark blue’ Russian has the word ‘siniy’. Where English has the compound form ‘light blue’, Russian has the word goluboy. There is no word where English has focal blue. Like this:

Siniy-----------------------------------Goluboy

These two words are not compounds or derivatives. They are stand-alone words as distinct as red and green in English.( For more on Russian blue see Winawer, Witthoft, Frank, Wu, Wade and Boroditsky (2007).)

A bit closer to home (for me) is the Japanese terminology for color terms. Although Japanese does have separate words for green and blue ( 青い and 緑 aoi and midori respectively) there is often a kind of overlap. In Japanese when a traffic light turns to the ‘go’ color, Japanese use the word for blue (aoi). Even though it is clearly green to my sensibility, speakers say ‘Singo ga aoi.’ not Shingo ga midori. I tested this out on my kids. When I asked them in English ‘what color is the traffic light?’ they answered ‘Green’. I showed them a picture of a leaf and asked them what color it was. Again, ‘green.’
Then we switched to Japanese and the leaf was ‘Midori’ and the traffic light was ‘Aoi’. (Although my little girl then cogitated a bit and said that the traffic light was ‘mixed’)
It turns out that many languages have a word that is basically ‘grue’, not really differentiating the way that English does with green and blue. If specificity is needed speakers can say something like ‘grue like foliage’ or ‘grue like the sky.

See here for more on grue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue%E2%8 ... e#Japanese

So, color has its physical and physiological aspects, but in terms of language and culture, the issue is fairly complex and the way we chop up the spectrum in our native language is often very different from the way it is done in other languages.

References

Berlin, B., & Kay, P. (1991). Basic color terms: Their universality and evolution. Univ of California Press.

Deutscher, G. (2010). Through the language glass: Why the world looks different in other languages. Metropolitan books.

Snowden, R. J., Thompson, P., & Troscianko, T. (2012). Basic vision: an introduction to visual perception. Oxford University Press.

Winawer, J., Witthoft, N., Frank, M. C., Wu, L., Wade, A. R., & Boroditsky, L. (2007). Russian blues reveal effects of language on color discrimination. Proceedings of the national academy of sciences, 104(19), 7780-7785.

Zajonc, A. (1995). Catching the light: The entwined history of light and mind. Oxford University Press, USA.

Here is an image of the Berlin and Kay schema

Image
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1103  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 11, 2021 4:14 am

Just immortalised the above post in a Word document. I love it when people post informative posts. :)
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1104  Postby don't get me started » Dec 11, 2021 4:37 am

Calilasseia wrote:Just immortalised the above post in a Word document. I love it when people post informative posts. :)


Cheers Cali. It's not often I'd venture to contribute anything to the mathematics thread :thumbup:

I'm glad you found it informative.
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1105  Postby hackenslash » Dec 11, 2021 11:58 am

Cracking good post.

I have a vague memory that the colour term used by the Greeks for the sky was 'bronze'.
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1106  Postby Evolving » Dec 11, 2021 4:57 pm

don't get me started wrote:The go to example in the literature is the case of Russian blue. (Actually, it is more accurate to say Russian blues.)

So, in English there is what we can call ‘focal blue’ which is the color that people would choose if asked to point to a best example of ‘blue’. If we add more black we move towards navy blue or dark blue. If we add more white we start to get light blue. Like this:

Dark blue------------Blue-----------Light blue

In Russian the system works differently. Where English has the compound form ‘dark blue’ Russian has the word ‘siniy’. Where English has the compound form ‘light blue’, Russian has the word goluboy. There is no word where English has focal blue. Like this:

Siniy-----------------------------------Goluboy

These two words are not compounds or derivatives. They are stand-alone words as distinct as red and green in English.( For more on Russian blue see Winawer, Witthoft, Frank, Wu, Wade and Boroditsky (2007).)


Same thing in Italian: azzurro vs. blu.

For what that's worth.

EDIT: the other way round, in fact.
How extremely stupid not to have thought of that - T.H. Huxley
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1107  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 6:42 pm

newolder wrote:^ "Your theory sparkles like shit in the eyes of a shrimp", reads like a future Blackadder putdown. :think:

You answer yourself with your own tag newholder.

Captain darling to you blackadder*
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1108  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 7:18 pm

Evolving wrote:
don't get me started wrote:The go to example in the literature is the case of Russian blue. (Actually, it is more accurate to say Russian blues.)

So, in English there is what we can call ‘focal blue’ which is the color that people would choose if asked to point to a best example of ‘blue’. If we add more black we move towards navy blue or dark blue. If we add more white we start to get light blue. Like this:

Dark blue------------Blue-----------Light blue

In Russian the system works differently. Where English has the compound form ‘dark blue’ Russian has the word ‘siniy’. Where English has the compound form ‘light blue’, Russian has the word goluboy. There is no word where English has focal blue. Like this:

Siniy-----------------------------------Goluboy

These two words are not compounds or derivatives. They are stand-alone words as distinct as red and green in English.( For more on Russian blue see Winawer, Witthoft, Frank, Wu, Wade and Boroditsky (2007).)


Same thing in Italian: azzurro vs. blu.

For what that's worth.

EDIT: the other way round, in fact.


Nicely put together evolving.
Three primary colours, what order do you state them and why?
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1109  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 7:24 pm

hackenslash wrote:Cracking good post.

I have a vague memory that the colour term used by the Greeks for the sky was 'bronze'.


Big strides in forensic science with Egyptian blue. Who'd of thought.
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1110  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 7:47 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
pfrankinstein wrote:Yes.
Without a baseline, a start point everything can be seen as a kaleidoscope that makes no sense.
What type of perspective could be used for the baseline. A train of thought.
Really want to get the colours into a reasoned scientific grounded logical order.



.


You're a few years too late. The eminent color scientist, Roy G. Biv (deceased) put color order on a firm footing long before you were born. His initials are immortalized in the RGB color scheme currently used in computer graphics. Others have come along since then, such as Chu-Ming Yong-Kim (CMYK) and Herbert Stanton Brown (HSB). You can look it up.


Just my luck.
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1111  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 8:06 pm

Will our understanding of Evolution ever be set free from the constraints of your Darwinan biological understaning and a broader understanding be had?
What say you Dawkins?
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1112  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 8:20 pm

Sheldon same question to you?
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1113  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 9:33 pm

Hermit wrote:
pfrankinstein wrote:Yes.
Without a baseline, a start point everything can be seen as a kaleidoscope that makes no sense.
What type of perspective could be used for the baseline. A train of thought.
Really want to get the colours into a reasoned scientific grounded logical order.



.

Wavelength and frequency might just serve as a baseline. To add context we could insert visible colours into the electromagnetic spectrum. Somewhere between infrared and ultraviolet might be a suitable location. It's a novel idea, I know, but worth a try.


What if we change light medium to a scientists painting oils, a canvass and brush.
Why might he put red on his palette first.
I'm open to the idea of yellow.
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1114  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 9:50 pm

Dawkins replied to me.
If a common concept (evolution) is accepted in defined limits by the majority then it is accepted is very difficult to change that .
Old dog new tricks syndrome.
(I paraphrase) so, :naughty: no no no our understanding is thus, that's it, end of.

No ambiguity in math or physics. :popcorn:
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1115  Postby newolder » Dec 11, 2021 9:53 pm

pfrankinstein wrote:
newolder wrote:^ "Your theory sparkles like shit in the eyes of a shrimp", reads like a future Blackadder putdown. :think:

You answer yourself with your own tag newholder.

Captain darling to you blackadder*

I’m not so sure.

If I could determine/prove there was a reddest red, I’d be a long way to winning a million bucks from solving the Yang-Mills existence and mass gap Millennium Prize problem. The last one at the link: https://www.claymath.org/library/monographs/MPPc.pdf
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1116  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 10:30 pm

newolder wrote:
pfrankinstein wrote:
newolder wrote:^ "Your theory sparkles like shit in the eyes of a shrimp", reads like a future Blackadder putdown. :think:

You answer yourself with your own tag newholder.

Captain darling to you blackadder*

I’m not so sure.

If I could determine/prove there was a reddest red, I’d be a long way to winning a million bucks from solving the Yang-Mills existence and mass gap Millennium Prize problem. The last one at the link: https://www.claymath.org/library/monographs/MPPc.pdf


You can't talk to me like that I was here when it was just fields.
Easy tiger. Sir my apologies . Erm rings out cap.
Shall I play Baldrick to your Blackadder?
I yield to higher intelligence.
Sir,..... colour a universal language also?
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1117  Postby pfrankinstein » Dec 11, 2021 11:35 pm

Hermit wrote:
pfrankinstein wrote:Yes.
Without a baseline, a start point everything can be seen as a kaleidoscope that makes no sense.
What type of perspective could be used for the baseline. A train of thought.
Really want to get the colours into a reasoned scientific grounded logical order.



.

Wavelength and frequency might just serve as a baseline. To add context we could insert visible colours into the electromagnetic spectrum. Somewhere between infrared and ultraviolet might be a suitable location. It's a novel idea, I know, but worth a try.


What is the most primitive answer to the question. The order of colour?
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1118  Postby Hermit » Dec 12, 2021 4:42 am

pfrankinstein wrote:Will our understanding of Evolution ever be set free from the constraints of your Darwinan biological understaning and a broader understanding be had?

What would your theory of evolution, set free from the constraints of Darwinan biological understaning, look like?

pfrankinstein wrote:
Hermit wrote:
pfrankinstein wrote:Yes.
Without a baseline, a start point everything can be seen as a kaleidoscope that makes no sense.
What type of perspective could be used for the baseline. A train of thought.
Really want to get the colours into a reasoned scientific grounded logical order.

Wavelength and frequency might just serve as a baseline. To add context we could insert visible colours into the electromagnetic spectrum. Somewhere between infrared and ultraviolet might be a suitable location. It's a novel idea, I know, but worth a try.

What if we change light medium to a scientists painting oils, a canvass and brush.
Why might he put red on his palette first.
I'm open to the idea of yellow.

He might well do that. The order on his palette does not change the wavelength and frequency of red. Nor of yellow or any other colour for that matter. Wavelength and frequency are the best criteria to get the colours into a reasoned scientific grounded logical order. They make up the baseline that turns the kaleidoscope into an order that makes sense.

Image

pfrankinstein wrote:What is the most primitive answer to the question. The order of colour?

Don't know. Don't care. I just gave you the answer to what the the best criteria to get the colours into a reasoned scientific grounded logical order are.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1119  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 12, 2021 6:00 am

pfrankinstein wrote:Will our understanding of Evolution ever be set free from the constraints of your Darwinan biological understaning and a broader understanding be had?
What say you Dawkins?


No.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
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Re: Mathematics a universal language.

#1120  Postby Spearthrower » Dec 12, 2021 6:04 am

pfrankinstein wrote:Dawkins replied to me.


Are you saying this is fact, or are you making this up? You need to be honest about what people say.



pfrankinstein wrote:If a common concept (evolution) is accepted in defined limits by the majority then it is accepted is very difficult to change that .
Old dog new tricks syndrome.


That has absolutely nothing at all to do with why Biological Evolution cannot be extended to account for the birth of planets and such like because, as was explained to you many times in great depth, the process for the creation of a planet is not at all analogous to the process of evolution of species.


pfrankinstein wrote:(I paraphrase) so, :naughty: no no no our understanding is thus, that's it, end of.


Paraphrase, or make up in entirety?


pfrankinstein wrote:No ambiguity in math or physics. :popcorn:


Says?
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