Neanderthal Social Organisation

Stefan Milo

Discuss various aspects of ancient civilizations and humanity in general.

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

Neanderthal Social Organisation

#1  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 16, 2023 4:36 am

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05283-y

Genomic analyses of Neanderthals have previously provided insights into their population history and relationship to modern humans (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8), but the social organization of Neanderthal communities remains poorly understood. Here we present genetic data for 13 Neanderthals from two Middle Palaeolithic sites in the Altai Mountains of southern Siberia: 11 from Chagyrskaya Cave9,10 and 2 from Okladnikov Cave11—making this one of the largest genetic studies of a* Neanderthal population to date.


*note that the indefinite article is being asked to carry a lot here - it means that this genetic data is all from one single location where these ancestors all lived, a single population.

These results were published last year, but it has spawned a host of other related studies that are adding a huge amount of information on neanderthals that was previously purely speculative.

As always, Stefan Milo is a great communicator on palaeo-stuff.

I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#2  Postby THWOTH » Aug 16, 2023 12:42 pm

What could we say about our own society, it's structure and organisation from 47 samples of DNA?
"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
Michel de Montaigne, Essais, 1580
User avatar
THWOTH
RS Donator
 
Posts: 38753
Age: 59

Country: Untied Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#3  Postby The_Metatron » Aug 16, 2023 1:00 pm

They were well organized:

IMG_2261.jpeg
IMG_2261.jpeg (340.24 KiB) Viewed 431 times

IMG_2262.jpeg
IMG_2262.jpeg (366.32 KiB) Viewed 431 times


Documentaries.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 22549
Age: 61
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#4  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 16, 2023 1:32 pm

THWOTH wrote:What could we say about our own society, it's structure and organisation from 47 samples of DNA?



For example, the genetic relationships within a group or location, and the social organization such as group size, male to female ratio, and the territorial range of their community.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#5  Postby The_Metatron » Aug 16, 2023 2:55 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
THWOTH wrote:What could we say about our own society, it's structure and organisation from 47 samples of DNA?

For example, the genetic relationships within a group or location, and the social organization such as group size, male to female ratio, and the territorial range of their community.

They could unequivocally show contact between groups, showing the women moved more frequently than men. Fascinating stuff.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 22549
Age: 61
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#6  Postby THWOTH » Aug 16, 2023 3:46 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
THWOTH wrote:What could we say about our own society, it's structure and organisation from 47 samples of DNA?


For example, the genetic relationships within a group or location, and the social organization such as group size, male to female ratio, and the territorial range of their community.


Well I guess that's saying something, but not very much about a society or its culture.
"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
Michel de Montaigne, Essais, 1580
User avatar
THWOTH
RS Donator
 
Posts: 38753
Age: 59

Country: Untied Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#7  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 16, 2023 11:38 pm

THWOTH wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
THWOTH wrote:What could we say about our own society, it's structure and organisation from 47 samples of DNA?


For example, the genetic relationships within a group or location, and the social organization such as group size, male to female ratio, and the territorial range of their community.


Well I guess that's saying something, but not very much about a society or its culture.


Right, but the study is about social organisation, not culture.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#8  Postby THWOTH » Aug 17, 2023 1:37 am

Spearthrower wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
THWOTH wrote:What could we say about our own society, it's structure and organisation from 47 samples of DNA?


For example, the genetic relationships within a group or location, and the social organization such as group size, male to female ratio, and the territorial range of their community.


Well I guess that's saying something, but not very much about a society or its culture.


Right, but the study is about social organisation, not culture.
I'd be interested to hear some explanation as to how 'social organisation' and 'culture’ can be viewed as uniquely distinct, non-contingent features of a society.
"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
Michel de Montaigne, Essais, 1580
User avatar
THWOTH
RS Donator
 
Posts: 38753
Age: 59

Country: Untied Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#9  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 17, 2023 9:43 am

THWOTH wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:

For example, the genetic relationships within a group or location, and the social organization such as group size, male to female ratio, and the territorial range of their community.


Well I guess that's saying something, but not very much about a society or its culture.


Right, but the study is about social organisation, not culture.
I'd be interested to hear some explanation as to how 'social organisation' and 'culture’ can be viewed as uniquely distinct, non-contingent features of a society.


There is some area of overlap, but by and large, they're distinct quantities.

Culture is the practices of a population, for example, the ceremonies they perform, the language they speak, the beliefs they hold. There is a material element too in terms of the items they make - their material culture. In essence, culture is transmitted by word of mouth - enculturation. While some other species may potentially be accused of it, by and large, culture is a human phenomenon resulting from the thoughts of the population.

Social organisation is at a deeper, biological level. All animals that live together have social organisation; one that doesn't arise at all from the ideas those animals have, but from genes. Bees, for example, don't have a cultural overlay that changes the organization of their society - they just hive.

When it comes to such long-dead species as neanderthals, we have very little means of accessing their culture as, by and large, it doesn't preserve. Aside from artifacts they made, or materials they used, we'll never be able to study the culture of neanderthals - it's just not available to us.

But a fair amount of knowledge about social organisation is open to us as it requires no insight into the minds of the species, only quantifiable elements, like the number of individuals in a group, the male to female ratio, the number of older individuals, the survival rate of injured, in what proximity they lived to one another, how far they ranged to find food and whether there was a distribution of labour - all these things can potentially be discovered through material evidence and they can paint a previously unseen picture of neanderthal life.

This study is based on an exceptionally rare find of a lot of neanderthal remains from the same location and from the same time who lived together and were related to varying degrees. The fossils we typically find are geographically and temporally disparate from other neanderthal finds, so this study is a very rare insight into the structure of a neanderthal group.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#10  Postby THWOTH » Aug 17, 2023 3:36 pm

Thanks for that. But I'm still a bit sceptical about what a limited clutch of distributive factors, gleaned from a tiny sample, can tell us about how a deep-past society was really organised.
"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
Michel de Montaigne, Essais, 1580
User avatar
THWOTH
RS Donator
 
Posts: 38753
Age: 59

Country: Untied Kingdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Neanderthal Social Organisation

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 17, 2023 4:05 pm

Well, it can tell us an awful lot more than we knew before. Group size of a particular locale's neanderthal populations has in the past very often been estimated only from midden heaps.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post


Return to Anthropology

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 0 guests