"If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#221  Postby archibald » Jul 24, 2010 1:53 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Obviously, the perceived world is a collective enterprise, because the trees, birds, and flowers don't go away whenever somebody dies. The role of the observer is a collective one. In a sense. No pun intended.

What these woo-heads need to ask is whether the world will go away once human beings are extinct. Consult the fossil record for moments when there was no humanconscious observingnessness. Wibble wibble wibble.



Yeah, but aren't there two possible arguments involved here? I don't think anyone is hinting that the waves don't exist.

Some are digressing into qm (where I get lost) but it doesn't seem to me even they are making the 'doesn't exist' case about the 'sound'waves of the tree falling.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#222  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 24, 2010 1:56 pm

archibald wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Obviously, the perceived world is a collective enterprise, because the trees, birds, and flowers don't go away whenever somebody dies. The role of the observer is a collective one. In a sense. No pun intended.

What these woo-heads need to ask is whether the world will go away once human beings are extinct. Consult the fossil record for moments when there was no humanconscious observingnessness. Wibble wibble wibble.



Yeah, but aren't there two possible arguments involved here. I don't think anyone is hinting that the waves don't exist.

Some are digressing into qm (where I get lost) but it doesn't seem to me even they are making the 'doesn't exist' case about the 'sound'waves.


Nope, I'm just treating the problems of woo-heads who think or imply that the "quantum measurement problem" actually treats human observers as a special (sauce) case of collapsing a wave function. These people are very, very confused about QM.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#223  Postby archibald » Jul 24, 2010 1:57 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Nope, I'm just treating the problems of woo-heads who think or imply that the "quantum measurement problem" actually treats human observers as a special case of collapsing a wave function. These people are very, very confused about QM.



I'd have to stay out of that one. :]
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#224  Postby rainbow » Jul 24, 2010 2:43 pm

archibald wrote:
Some are digressing into qm (where I get lost) but it doesn't seem to me even they are making the 'doesn't exist' case about the 'sound'waves of the tree falling.

...but you see, the tree doesn't really exist.
It is a hypothetical tree, and can only make hypothetical sound.
...which isn't real.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#225  Postby rainbow » Jul 25, 2010 9:01 am

Of course one might also ask the question:
"if an invisible pink unicorn falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?"
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#226  Postby King Hazza » Jul 25, 2010 10:59 am

Archibald- to answer your question, probably a similar case of if a deaf and non-deaf person were exposed to a noise, and the deaf could not ascertain the quality of the sound but the other person could- the short (and admittedly sell-out answer) is that it exists beyond the perception of the person who cannot hear it.
Another twist to the puzzle is the MP3. what few people realize in any musical sound file is that there is over 11 times the range of sound frequencies than the spectrum we are able to hear, coming from the music that is played and recorded. They cut down the file-size by actually removing the data that projects these effectively, inaudible sound frequencies.

The bottom line is that we would agree that the sound we hear is nothing but kinetic waves. The catch is, these kinetic waves are identical in every way up and down the spectrum in all but frequency- it's just that our ears (and ONLY our ears), simply fail to pick them up.
It would be like the color spectrum- there is easily a huge range of colors that exist beyond human perception (even more for color-blind people)- doesn't mean they cannot be defined as colors if there was any detectable differentiation to suggest otherwise. Not to mention the light spectrums that we cannot see and can only understand as 'light' through mechanical detection.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#227  Postby King Hazza » Jul 25, 2010 11:02 am

Damn you Rainbow- your paradoxes are making my head spin!
Good point on the falling tree, I can't believe that was the answer (though a very special connection of logic- ahem)-
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#228  Postby rainbow » Jul 27, 2010 1:36 pm

King Hazza wrote:Damn you Rainbow- your paradoxes are making my head spin!

You are too kind to a simpler bearer of the wooden spoon.
:pray:
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#229  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 27, 2010 2:25 pm

rainbow wrote:
King Hazza wrote:Damn you Rainbow- your paradoxes are making my head spin!

You are too kind to a simpler bearer of the wooden spoon.
:pray:


The only thing wooden in this thread are your ripostes. We are board with you, but still you continue to try to take a bough, as you bark up the wrong tree. Logging further complaints with old saws is plane foolishness. Perhaps you mitre reconsider your actually joining the discussion. No one here is a grain with you. Carve it your own way.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#230  Postby newolder » Jul 27, 2010 5:31 pm

rainbow wrote:Of course one might also ask the question:
"if an invisible pink unicorn falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

Pink is a non-electromagnetic label for this class? Invisible to electromagnetic view does not rule out any gravitational signature of such an instance and I could easily arrange the necessary frequency shifts to bring the equivalent of sound to your ears. Representations or maps of the invisible realm are not a promble to the scientific method.

With self do
create(class.object(visibility(off), lblColor(lblPink), lblSpeciesTxt(“unicorn”))

Note: If self is nothing it's alone in its universe.

Sounds like: moo. :lol:
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#231  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Jul 27, 2010 5:45 pm

If a tree falls, it must surely be old, sick, or both, and thus infected by termites, who observe the fall. Therefore the universe will not collapse into non-existence just because god's favorite ape was not present to hear it. Even other atoms "observe" things in the way QT means "observer". [Interactor would be a better word, perhaps].
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#232  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jul 28, 2010 11:24 am

I think the more important question is: did it fall, or was it pushed? :think:
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#233  Postby Animavore » Jul 28, 2010 11:25 am

Mr.Samsa wrote:I think the more important question is: did it fall, or was it pushed? :think:


Maybe it couldn't bear life any more and killed itself?
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#234  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jul 28, 2010 11:31 am

Animavore wrote:
Mr.Samsa wrote:I think the more important question is: did it fall, or was it pushed? :think:


Maybe it couldn't bear life any more and killed itself?


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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#235  Postby Jeffersonian-marxist » Jul 29, 2010 12:50 am

The problem is that in order for something to be "heard", a living organism which has organs capable of translating pressure vibrations in a gaseous medium into a specific neural state must be in the vicinity.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#236  Postby Gila Guerilla » Jul 29, 2010 1:30 am

inkaStepa wrote:So while the waves are there unless someone is present, the waves alone aren't able to make a sound? If this is true, then implying that a tree could "make" a sound would be wrong to begin with wouldn't it?

I agree with this, inkaStepa. Falling trees do not make sound, even if hearing people or animals are around. The falling tree makes changes in air pressure, which causes the ear drums to move, and by nerve impulses, the brain registers this as a sensation we call sound. The brain makes the sound.

Like our ear drums, a piece of paper will move in response to the changes in air pressure, but the paper does not register sound. A recording machine can take the changes in pressure and place them onto a recording medium, like a tape or a chip, as variations in magnetism or electrical storage. Still it's not sound. The machine can later reverse the process, and put back the pressure variations into the air, so that our ears can pass them to our brain via nervous impulses, and so create the sound.

Deaf people don't have the necessary neural mechanisms to convert these varying pressure waves into sound, (what we humans - and animals - hear as sound). I liken it to light. Without eyes, the universe is dark. There may be photons flying about, but without eyes, there is no vision. We know that bees can see ultra violet light, so flowers look quite different to them, than to us with our unaided eyes. Human eyes can only see a small part of the electro magnetic spectrum. The rest of the spectrum is dark or invisible to us. It is our eyes and our brains that make things have light and shade and colour and visibility.

There are faults in vision such as colour blindness or total blindness, which limits some people's vision. If we had no eyes, we would see nothing. The universe would be dark. Other beings with eyes would be able to register electro magnetic radiation, and use their eyes and brains to see light, but without eyes, (or some other organ to register e.m. waves), it is a dark universe. I also accept that I do not know if I see the world around me in exactly the same way as anyone else. I know that my view of it differs from what a colour blind person sees, but two people with 20-20 full colour vision might be totally surprised if they could see EXACTLY what the other see.

The answer to the question of whether a falling tree would make a sound if there was no one, (or no animal), to hear it is no. Trees don't make sounds, even with people or animals present. Ears and brains, (and maybe other organs, eg. in snakes), make sounds. Trees just stir up the air and the ground etc. with pressure waves.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#237  Postby newolder » Jul 29, 2010 9:53 am

Gila Geurilla wrote:Without eyes, the universe is dark.

If by dark you mean an absence of visual cortex stimulation then this is not true.

Brain ports provide the necessary evidence.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#238  Postby The Damned » Aug 01, 2010 8:22 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
archibald wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Obviously, the perceived world is a collective enterprise, because the trees, birds, and flowers don't go away whenever somebody dies. The role of the observer is a collective one. In a sense. No pun intended.

What these woo-heads need to ask is whether the world will go away once human beings are extinct. Consult the fossil record for moments when there was no humanconscious observingnessness. Wibble wibble wibble.



Yeah, but aren't there two possible arguments involved here. I don't think anyone is hinting that the waves don't exist.

Some are digressing into qm (where I get lost) but it doesn't seem to me even they are making the 'doesn't exist' case about the 'sound'waves.


Nope, I'm just treating the problems of woo-heads who think or imply that the "quantum measurement problem" actually treats human observers as a special (sauce) case of collapsing a wave function. These people are very, very confused about QM.


Who are you talking to? No seriously who, is it the voices in your head? Observation can be anything (is related to any interaction where the behaviour happens) as already highlighted by both me and someone who presumably understands the subject. the wave function collapse is not a person dependant event, but the measurement of sound or hearing is, thus the analogy and the question and its relevance to interpretation. Jesus H Corbett, you're so far up your own ass that you can see your own teeth.

  • no one claimed the tree doesn't exist, although I did mention that Einstein mocked the ontological implications of the wave not existing as a definable entity until it is measured. Ie "Does the moon still exist when we aren't looking at it?"
  • no one claimed quantum events happen with any regularity at macro scales, in fact I detailed exactly the opposite and why and the probability maths that deals with that, as scale s increases the integral Px approaches the limit of 0
  • no one claimed at any point that technology that deals with nano scales is directly used at macro scales ever not even remotely but clearly as someone else said the phenomena can be exploited to make quantum transistors that exploit the indeterminate superpositions of sub/atomic scales events. the tree and the implication of sound is a fucking analogy of the wave function and the reality of what sound is and means, real not real is an observation about the wave function also just to make that clear, before you witter on about woo for some fucking bizarre reason unrelated to anything anyone says, maths not physical reality per se. and especially in shut up and calculate where the wave function is only symbolic. Get it? as opposed to many worlds where the wave function is real (exactly pictorial representative maths) and quantum mechanics is deterministic rather than probabilistic as it is now in modern physics.
  • shut up and calculate is a philosophical interpretation AKA Copenhagen, it is what Feynman said when asked what his favourite interpretation was although the phrases origin is attributed to several other scientists, it was a reference to the expermentalist leanings of Bohr. Ie there is no sound unless we measure it. Unlike you though Bohr wasn't an idiot and he realised there was something it was just undefined without a relation to measurement, hence shut up and calculate. hence
    Person: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound
    Bohr: no for sound to make sense it has to be measured, this implies an observation made by a measuring device and the implication of a human biological entity that interprets or "hears" sound. Which interestingly we can analogise to the wave functions measurement.
  • real scientists and philosophers who weren't pretentious little trolls, with some weird fantastical mega chip on their shoulder about a subject they don't even remotely understand, actually used this analogy in the same way Schrödinger did with his cat analogy and have done since the 19th and early 20th century and will go on doing so without any need to ask Lord Ubermeister Von physics for permission.
  • who the fuck died and made you king of philosophy anyway? Clearly you've never even studied the philosophy of science either let alone intepretation mechanics?
  • and what the fuck are you going on about anyway, really, no once can make sense of your inane gibberish; do you even know what you are talking about at all, even remotely. What is your level of education in quantum theory? or philosophy for that matter that means anyone has to listen to whatever the fuck drivel you plagiarise directly off the net and pass off?
  • No one has said anything remotely linked to any sort of woo ever, even mildly, even the people who aren't talking about quantum mechanics, you're insane, seriously get help its all in your mind.
  • please go away and study physics at least to an A level standard, clearly you never have, and if you want to attack the mathematical and interpretational concerns of physics you need to actually understand it. then you wont ebmbarasse yourself by making bizarre tangential nonsensical claims with no fucking relation to my subject what so fucking ever, ever. Assuming you stop listening to the voices that only exist in your head and actually start reading what people write of course.


Before I leave this forum forever I just had to point out that this guy has absolutely fucking no clue what he is talking about, the maths of QM or the formalism or the philosophical implications to ontology and epistemology and is pretentiously spouting stuff about fuck knows what without reading anything anyone says; on being corrected he then goes on to reiterate mistakes in his own pitifully lax understanding of this subject and make the same pathetic claims again and again and again. I've tried getting the mods to act on this pathetic trolls behaviour but no luck, and since there isn't an ignore feature best thing to do is simply leave this pretentious little arrogant fuck to crap all over any scientific discussion with his poisonous bile. If you people want to put up with indulging this self important little arrogant twat with some weird fucking delusional fantasies about ghosts that he chases, fine, but I don't have to. Adieu or not I don't care.

@Lord Vonm physics cito whatever FFS Go indulge your fucking imaginary bullshit and pretentious overly contrived crap at someone else you strawmanning troll.

@ mods go ahead and ban me for two months or whatever, I'm never coming back anyway. Wave plastic Mjolnir why the fuck don't you, in lieu of dealing with this obnoxious and pretentious jerk as per fucking usual.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#239  Postby rainbow » Aug 06, 2010 3:59 pm

Quite.
Why don't you just ignore the Silly Ponce?
Everybody else does.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#240  Postby newolder » Aug 06, 2010 9:56 pm

rainbow wrote:Quite.
Why don't you just ignore the Silly Ponce?
Everybody else does.

Define "everybody" and you might have a case. :yawn:
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