Posted: Oct 05, 2017 6:52 am
Yeah, it's the real failure of the argument. We already know the ball has a designer and maker(s), it may even have the country of origin stamped on it. We know of things which don't have designers and makers like cliffs, moons, and organisms, which contain no stamp of a producer. We know that things designed and built by agencies are designed and built from the things which don't have design and agency, including the agencies themselves, and that designed things come after and stem from undesigned things. We also know that it has a material origin; it's made from stuff which already existed.
So how is the answer that a universe of undesigned things, which contains designed things as a subset, itself a designed thing, (stemming from, and a subset of, an undesigned thing, which unlike other undesigned things does not have a chain of undesigned causes preceding it), which somehow comes before the undesigned things, reversing the normal causality we see...
*deep breath*
A better answer than the universe is an undesigned thing, stemming from previous, undesigned stuff and causes, which produces, naturally, through evolution, agencies capable of designing and producing designed things, as an end result, from their undesigned environment, but also, as a corollary, able to, erroneously, run causality back from the things they design and build, through themselves and all other undesigned things, and backwards out the arse-end of the universe and through to another undesigned designer preceding a designed universe (as a start result book-ending and mirroring their own design at the far end) of undesigned, natural phenomena.
I'm pressing submit beause that took time and effort to tease out of my head. Not fully convinced it makes sense. Just finished a night-shift.
So how is the answer that a universe of undesigned things, which contains designed things as a subset, itself a designed thing, (stemming from, and a subset of, an undesigned thing, which unlike other undesigned things does not have a chain of undesigned causes preceding it), which somehow comes before the undesigned things, reversing the normal causality we see...
*deep breath*
A better answer than the universe is an undesigned thing, stemming from previous, undesigned stuff and causes, which produces, naturally, through evolution, agencies capable of designing and producing designed things, as an end result, from their undesigned environment, but also, as a corollary, able to, erroneously, run causality back from the things they design and build, through themselves and all other undesigned things, and backwards out the arse-end of the universe and through to another undesigned designer preceding a designed universe (as a start result book-ending and mirroring their own design at the far end) of undesigned, natural phenomena.
I'm pressing submit beause that took time and effort to tease out of my head. Not fully convinced it makes sense. Just finished a night-shift.