Posted: Dec 20, 2011 11:05 pm
Exi5tentialist wrote:Agi Hammerthief wrote:Exi5tentialist wrote:To be honest I never heard much talk of religious freedom from Hitchens, nor does it emanate from the astounding intellect of Richard Dawkins, but then they were both a generation late to have witnessed the holocaust
when was the holocaust about religion?
Did it only hit people with funny hats, mutilated penises and curly sideburns?
There are many facets to the identity of the Jews - including their ethnicity, their history, their language, their customs and their religion. It's easy to forget the last one, and just as easy to dismiss it, especially if you're anti-semitic. But the Holocaust, as you know, was about all of the things I listed, including religious persecution, a fact that did not go unnoticed in the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed in 1948, which guaranteed religious freedom to all. Leaving aside that the history of the holocaust is not particularly difficult to understand, even though for most of us it has drifted out of living memory, the right of everybody to worship whatever god they choose, in the way of their choosing, is surely a cornerstone of a sensitive, compassionate and strong democracy, is it not?
No, it isn't. The freedom to worship OR NOT WORSHIP whatever god they choose certainly is. But your omission speaks volumes.
If Christopher Hitchens had ever said such a thing, I surely would have heard about it. And if he really did, and I just missed it, perhaps he should have said it more often, and more loudly, because all I ever heard was his blanket dismissiveness of all things religious. That, I think, is where he concentrated his volume.
Oh, please excuse Hitchens, he didn't know that it was his job to say what you want him to say, at the volume you want him to say it. Note the Jefferson speech above (http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post1 ... l#p1122725), which I will reference again later. Newsflash: Hitchens hated your religion, he didn't feel the need to promote it to make you feel better. Perhaps you should supply some evidence of him saying religion should be forcibly taken away from people, since you seem to be implying that is what you think his position is. I would assert he has made the case for religious and ethnic plurality it quite clear, although if one doesn't give a rat's ass about the Kurds I can see why it wouldn't sink in.
While your petty-minded little anti-semitic outburst about 'funny hats, mutilated penises and curly sideburns' may raise a chortle in the reactionary circles Christopher Hitchens might have found the most attention in, I do think it was ill-advised given that we are talking about the extermination of a section of the human race. And before you repeat the indiscretion by arguing genitals at me (I would counter-argue that all circumcision of boys on non-medical grounds should be banned by law), I would ask you to calm down, reflect on human suffering and perhaps spare a thought for millions of human beings who were tortured and died in those times at the hands of people who were at least as uncaring of people's religious freedoms as many people today appear to be; and perhaps watch a few films about the period such as Au Revoir Les Enfants, that reflect the tenderness and solace that people gained in those times from religious observances close to their hearts, any display of which would result in summary transportation without the slightest recourse to any judicial authority or public forum.
In that light, what would be your argument to someone taken away to be killed through having been discovered secretly observing jewish religious ceremonies? That their death and that of their family was not about religion? I'd be interested to see how you construct it.
Way to spectacularly miss the point
No shit, the Nazis were after the Jews? Really?Now, address the point of the question: are Jews the ONLY people who were persecuted by the Nazi's? Everyone that the Nazi's persecuted, it was all because they were Jews, every one of them? Gosh, 11 million minus 6 million isn't zero...And then, did you link a video promoting the benefits of religion after having ranted about a Christian killing a bunch of Jews? The cheek! The point, if you've still missed it: Nazis killed for more than just funny hats, mutilated penises and curly sideburns. But go ahead, cry racism, it looks real good.
As you can see in the Hitchens speech quoted above...he admires Jefferson for promoting true religious plurality, going as far as to protect one religious group from the persecution of the other, having no personal stake in either. There are plenty of objections to be made at things Hitchens has said, but your glossing over the broader concepts that Hitchens supported, all to rain sour grapes on a man because he calls religions on their bullshit, all are quite telling. For fuck's sake, isn't there a single Hitchens objector out there that has the foggiest fucking clue what he's said?
