Posted: Apr 09, 2012 7:12 pm
UndercoverElephant wrote:
I don't think we should permit gay marriage in the UK. This is not because I'm a religious fundamentalist or have anything against homosexuals, but because I actually think the view of marriage as an age-old concept of the union of a man and a woman for the purpose of raising a family is the correct one.
Not only is this an appeal to tradition fallacy, it's factually flawed as well. Marriage has had many different forms and definitions including polygamous, same-sex, incestuous and even what we would nowadays consider underage.
UndercoverElephant wrote:We already have civil partnerships, so this is not about "discrimination" in any material sense.
1. You're arguing semantics.
2. Calling it by a different name is discrimination, it's the same 'separate but equal' idea used during the segregation.
UndercoverElephant wrote:In terms of the legal system, we already have the equivalent of gay marriage, and that is just the way it should be.
Do civil unions grant visitation, inheritance and other rights? If so, you're only arguing about a name, which is both fallacious and unreasonable.
UndercoverElephant wrote:So why do some gays want more than this?
Because they want the same rights as the rest of mankind. They are humans after all, there is no reason why they should not be allowed to marry.
UndercoverElephant wrote:Why do they want to actually be able to say they are married? What extra do they gain by doing so?
Recognition that they are part of the human race and of their love and commitment to each other.
A better question is: "Why shouldn't they be allowed to get married?" You have failed to give a rational answer to this question.
UndercoverElephant wrote:It would seem to me that the only thing they would gain is recognition that a civil partnership between two people of the same gender is equal in all ways to a traditional heterosexual marriage - not just in terms of legal and financial rights, but culturally identical to marriage.
Since marriage has never had one universal definition that's a nonsensical statement. As I said they just want to be recognized as human beings, their love and commitment is no less real than that of a straight couple.
UndercoverElephant wrote:And the problem with that is that it's simply not true. Gay partnerships aren't the same as heterosexual partnerships, for the simple reason that no biological children can be produced by the two people in the partnership.
And since procreation is not a requirement for marriage, nor vice versa, as well as the fact that many people marry without ever wanting or able to reproduce this is an completely irrelevant argument. Even more-so since gay people can both reproduce and raise children albeit through 'unnatural' means.
UndercoverElephant wrote:To put it metaphorically, it's like saying that Yin and Yin is no different to Yin and Yang, or that 1 + 1 is no different to 1 + -1. I'm sorry, but this is asking too much. It is asking the rest of society to take part in a politically-correct charade in order to make gay people feel like they are no different to heterosexuals.
They are, in the sense that they are human beings. You have failed to present a rational argument as to why marriage should be restricted to straight couples.
UndercoverElephant wrote:I have a newsflash for them: you're different. That doesn't mean you're bad, or wrong, or should be discriminated against.
Except it is discrimination to not allow gay people to get married or to give them a different union.
UndercoverElephant wrote:It just means you're different. What is so bad about that?
As I said before, that there is no rational argument to exclude gay people from marriage.
UndercoverElephant wrote:I might add that I live in the Hanover district of Brighton, about half a mile from the most concentrated gay community in the UK, and have not the slightest problem with this. Where I come from, the sight of gay couples being obviously gay in public doesn't even raise eyebrows. It's as much a part of the scenery as the seagulls are.
Then why do you object to gay people getting married? How does that affect you in any way?