rationalskepticism.org

Strontium Dog wrote:The fact you remained a Labour member throughout the whole episode suggests, if not forgiveness, then a certain level of comfort with extraordinary rendition to Arab despotates.

Well I choose not to jump ship, but argue for change. Ministers & politicians come & go, the party remains. My familiy were there at the founding of the party, nad have been active on the left for generations. I'm not inclined to abandon that heritage, even if Blairites don't give a shit. But Labour isn't one minister, nor a prime minister, nor an entire cabinet, it is the membership.

Or to put it another way: I would leave the Lib Dems if any Lib Dem minister had been involved in rendition, and I suspect Carl would do the same.

Would you leave the LibDems if it was discovered that rendition or torture had knowingly taken place under a coalition government that the LibDems were an integral part of? It's just that a little bird whispered something in my ear, something that may yet come out in the news media ...

... This isn't a misrepresentation, this is my perspective.

Your perspective on what I lament? Bollocks. You ascribe a position to me that I do not hold. That is misrepresentation.

So will you stop criticising the Lib Dems on tuition fees?

No. I've been very specific about my criticism. I've acknowledged the difficulties your party had in light of coalition with the Nazty Party, and I've also backed those who chose to abstain in the parliamentary vote - unable to back a pledge made in opposition, but making a principled stand not to vote for it as their leaders wanted. I absolutely backed those LibDems & Tories who voted against the rise. But the party's ministers voted for it. A complete & unprincipled volte face, and I hope each one suffers for it next election.

I think we covered rendition earlier. You belong to a party whose former leadership merrily supported rendition, and whose current leadership (many of whom are survivors of that regime, merely occupying different deckchairs on the same sorry ship) haven't distanced themselves from those actions.

We've yet to see conclusive proof of where ministerial complicity existed - I have my suspicions, and want to see those responsible jailed. We are talking about a minority of people, a minority of ministers no doubt. How that translates into me be content with rendition is beyond me.

I can't see any misrepresentation, much less outright lies.

QWith your head up your arse, how would you?