Posted: Aug 04, 2014 5:14 am
by Jayjay4547
Oldskeptic wrote: Image

Excuse me JayJay but it was this by you that started this line of discussion.

Speaking of centuries, the one that poses the greatest puzzle to us here and now is the last one, when godless totalitarianisms, all of which saw science as man’s escape from the blind superstitions of the past, loosed the most terrible genocidal destruction on mankind. It was believers in the faith of Abraham who were machine gunned into the pits. And not by religious zealots, but by zealots for the Fuhrer principle, the exaltation of human will.

I had been replying to Rumraket who tried to pin mayhem on remote barbarisms in Christian society by saying:

"So let's get this straight. When it is argued, with mere words, on the internet, that some ideas are terrible ideas and need to be (figuratively) destroyed, this is equal to centuries of torture, rape, murder, disease, theft, poverty, war, corruption and superstition almost all of which was instigated by fundamentalist abrahamic religious zealots?
It doesn't get any more stupid than this."

Oldskeptic wrote: Your claim was that Nazi Germany was godless. It was not by any stretch of the imagination godless, and it was a Christian nation. That they didn't act like your idyllic model of what a Christian should be matters not, a vast number of Christians have not fit the model.

I didn’t exactly claim that Nazi Germany was godless, I claimed the SS machine gunners were zealots for the Fuhrer principle, the exaltation of human will

The pics you posted were all Nazi propaganda aimed at showing the German people that the Nazi party and Hitler, were Christian. As I argued with Thomas, the Nazis had every strategic interest in presenting themselves as defenders of Christianity against the atheist communist threat. But when it came down to actualities, the Nazis interfered with, undermined, disassembled and looked forward to exterminating Christianity. All that is well set out in the Wiki entry on their “positive Christianity”. By the way the last pic in your post, with “DC” banners, is reproduced there. Animavore pasted in this quote from that entry, I suppose to show that the Nazis were Christian, when in fact the entry tells the opposite story:

In 1937, Hans Kerrl, the Nazi Minister for Church Affairs, explained "Positive Christianity" as not "dependent upon the Apostle's Creed", nor in "faith in Christ as the son of God", upon which Christianity relied, but rather, as being represented by the Nazi Party: "The Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation", he said.[3] To accord with Nazi antisemitism, Positive Christianity advocates also sought to deny the Semitic origins of Christ and the Bible. In such elements Positive Christianity separated itself from Christianity and is considered apostasyby Catholics and Protestants.

Is a “faith” that replaces Christ with Hitler, a Christian faith? Rosenberg sought to replace the Bible with Mein Kampf (see same entry) Is that a Christian faith? No, within Christianity such steps have long been recognised as an option for an anti-Christian ideology and identified with the antichrist.

But the opposition between Christianity and Nazism is completely basic. Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5) The Nazis didn’t hold with that, they believed that the violently competitive would inherit the earth.

Oldskeptic wrote: Christianity has never been the kind of restraint on human behavior that you would like to believe it is. Genocide is not exclusive to any religion or lack of religion. During the 15th through the mid 20th century Christianity did not stand in the way of genocide in the Americas, or in Australia, or in Africa, or in India, or in Asia. Christianity did not stand in the way of world wide slavery in colonies established by Christian nations. Nor did it stand in the way of trade in slaves kidnapped from Africa and Asia, and shipped to other colonies.

I don’t have rose-tinted glasses about restraint on human behaviour. I'm just out to counter bad propaganda. I think that in the cases you mention, and so far as I know, it was Christian elements that put a brake on cruelty, typically against secular interests.

In the Americas, according to Jonathan Kandell’s “The Capital” the Catholic church rapidly made itself indigenous in Mexico City and came to oppose the rapacious European Spaniards.

In Australia, after the “famous” hunt of Tasmanian aboriginals, it was Christian missionaries who protected the remnant from further murder - not very ably it seems.

In Africa it was Lutheran missionaries who blew the whistle on the German genocide of the Herero and American missionaries who blew the whistle on the Belgian genocide in the Congo.

Regarding slavery, it was British Christian anti-slavers like Wilberforce and later violent American Christians like John Brown and peaceful American Quakers who were at the forefront of the emancipation campaigns.

One can point to Southern slave Owners justifying their institution from the Bible but the truth remains that in the 19th and 20th century, reforming fire tended to come from Christians acting on moral and scriptural grounds, while oppression came from venial commercial secular interests.

Oldskeptic wrote: Your idea that Nazi Germany wasn't Christian because they didn't act like Christians is laughable. Given many examples from the past they were acting very much like Christians throughout history. Conquest, enslavement, genocide are all integral parts of European Christian history.

I repeat, I didn't claimed that Nazi Germany wasn’t Christian- it was the Nazi party that wasn’t. And your use of Nazi propaganda pics to try to show that they were is beyond laughable, it’s abominable.

Consider this question. Admitting as I hope you will that there was deep religious turmoil in Germany in the interwar years and that turmoil involved the Nazi party, why wasn’t there something equivalent happening in “Christian” Britain during those years? Where was the Conservative party attempt to put a British politician as the head of a new Christian sect? Where are the propaganda pics of Churchill to prove he was Christian? Where were the attempts by British politicians to deny the Hebrew background to Christianity? No the British churches just trundled on as they had in the previous hundred years, with no such controversy. The antichrist wasn’t working there.

Don't bring the Queen into this.