rationalskepticism.org

Thommo wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:
Leopards don't actually typically climb trees to hunt baboons because that would be very silly. A baboon weighs only a third of a leopard and is far better adapted to climbing trees. A leopard that climbs up the trunk of a tree is going to quickly find that the baboon has either a) moved out to thinner branches that cannot bear the leopard's weight or b) has run along a branch and jumped to another tree.

Jayjay4547 wrote:In this video which I have put up a few times on this forum, a leopard openly hunts a single baboon in a tree, who hangs onto a thin branch, but the leopard is prepared to take a fall, catching the baboon on the way down and killing it on the ground.

Naked link to Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR2m4Q2WCqI

In this video a leopard openly hunts and kills a much smaller monkey in a tree, also demonstrating great climbing skills and determination.

Naked link to Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5jX3GnwThU

Busse (1980) observed this:

When leopards attack a baboon roost they may remain at the roost for long intervals, and sometimes for the entire night. Two kills appeared to have been made at least an hour after leopards first attacked the roost. Thus, surprise is not a necessary element of successful attack, although one kill appeared to have been made in surprise.

Ok, so Spearthrower's claims are:
1 Leopards hunt baboons in trees only infrequently.

He said something stronger: that it would be silly for the leopard to climb trees to hunt baboons, because if it tried, it would “quickly find” circumstances that Spearthrower knew about and he then enumerated.

Thommo wrote: 2 Baboons weigh about one third the amount of leopards.

Not that it's important, Spearthrower’s ratio of weights was wrong. I copied these relative weights from a November 16th post, which wasn't contradicted: Australopithecus (31kgF-50kgM) baboon (13kgF-31kgM), leopard (23kgF-31kgM)”. Then a male leopard might weigh 2.3 limes a female baboon, and a female leopard three quarters the weight of a male baboon.

Thommo wrote: 3 Baboons are better at climbing trees than leopards.

Yes.

Thommo wrote: 4 If a leopard climbs a tree it will find the baboon it's after has moved to thinner branches or leapt to another tree.[/list]

In the first video, the leopard succeeded in catching a baboon that had moved onto thinner branches. In the second video, a leopard leapt into another tree itself where it succeeded in killing a much smaller monkey than a baboon.

Thommo wrote: Now, since you've given two examples (one of which doesn't feature a baboon at all and neither of which show a baboon defending itself with canines) and shown nothing relating to frequency, you haven't countered 1.

Point 1 was that only an unlearned leopard would typically hunt baboons in trees; it would “soon find” ie learn, how unproductive that was. Whereas, both videos showed a leopard successfully hunting a baboon, and a much smaller monkey, in trees. So I did counter 1.


And Busse (1980) observed leopards hunting baboons in roosting trees, under the most unfavourable circumstances for their predators, that the baboons could surely find: a tall tree with terminal branches a baboon could hang from out of reach of a leopard.

Concerning the canines; years ago I did naively visualise baboons defending themselves in roosts by at least threatening a hunting leopard. But Busse’s accounts don’t support that generally, and I haven’t argued it here. My interpretation is that the topology of a roosting tree makes it difficult for baboons to form a front against a leopard as they might when roosting on a cliff face. The pace at which a leopard can climb a tree trunk makes it difficult to stop it at the first branch, where it might just grab a defender and scramble back down the trunk.. The problem for the leopard happens after it has taken a victim; (e.g. by terrorising one out of its wits, or by just waiting until one dangling baboon changes its highly stressed dangling posture.). The problem is then how to get out of the tree without being maimed, with the victim in its mouth in a tree with many instantly enraged baboons.

Street (1971) “Animal Weapons”MacGibbon and Kee, London, gives on p24 this account of baboons becoming enraged when troop members were trapped for zoo collection:

"Carl Hagenbeck, the great German zoologist and animal dealer, recalls one occasion when his hunters came near to losing their lives when they set a trap, perhaps rather recklessly, in the territory of a huge troop of baboons estimated to be 3000 strong, No sooner had the door of the trap been closed on a number of captives than the rest of the troop attacked.
To the hunters it must have seemed like a nightmare as the savage hordes with bared teeth and erect manes, and uttering terrible screams, rushed upon them. Despite their firearms and cudgels their position was critical, but they managed to retreat. The attackers then turned their attention to the trap. With concentrated fury they flung themselves on it, reducing it to a complete wreck and departing with their released fellows".

Fitzpatrick’s (1907) "Jock of the Bushveld “, Longman’s Green and Co, London gives (p271) an equivalent account of enraged baboons rescuing a victim (in this case, of a leopard)

So I’m suggesting that a primate capacity to become enraged in protection of a victim is critical.

Thommo wrote: We can't weigh the baboon in the picture, but it is clearly much smaller than the leopard, so you haven't countered 2.

I don’t need to “counter” that the leopard was heavier than the baboon, just that in neither video (and especially in the second with the vervet-sized monkey) did that affect the success of the hunt.

Thommo wrote: We don't really see the climbing skill of the baboon relative to the leopard so you haven't countered 3. The baboon clearly has moved to the thin branches before the leopard reaches it, so not only have you not countered 4. you have confirmed it.

My criticism of Spearthrower’s lecture that it would typically be silly for a leopard to hunt baboons in a tree doesn’t depend on the leopard not being a better climber or on the baboon not climbing onto thin branches..I put up two videos showing successful hunts by leopards, one of a leopard killing a baboon that did climb onto thin branches and the other, killing a small monkey that leapt from one tree to another.

Those videos are anecdotal but I also cited Busse’s scientific observations of leopards persistently hunting baboons in roosting trees.

Thommo wrote: So my question is, what exactly are you bringing this up for again? It confirms his allegation that your sources don't support your contentions, it doesn't refute it.

I have argued above that my sources do support my contention; leopard do hunt baboons in trees under circumstances that would be unfavourable to australopithecines as alternative prey.

What do you visualise a troop of hominins doing in a roosting tre, about a leopard that had taken one of their members? Suppose that they were absolutely enraged, like a bunch of enraged baboons?