Posted: Jan 22, 2011 11:08 am
by Царь Славян
You missed the step before i.e. the step whereby the designer decides the fitness function and thus sets a goal or, with evolutionary model, where the environment has been formed without agency.


In case of the computer search, this is the part where the designer sets up the fitness function to select some sequences over others.

In case of natural evolution, the nature itself and it's properties decide which DNA sequence gets selected over others.




Using the example of the salinity of the sea then it is either a) the designer sets the salinity by causing salt content of the water or, b) the salt content of the water is not a goal but a result of what salts are available from rocks.
And what's the physical difference in these two processes?

Goal in the English language very strongly implies agency, pre-planning, pre-definition and so on. What happens with natural selection is not equivalent to a computer search because of this pre-definition of goal by an agent.
So basicly you are saying that there is no difference except semantics? What is the PHYSICAL difference?

Then we are at an impasse because you call it a goal which implies agency. In your argument you thus hope to sway the view towards agency.
No, I want to show you that both processes are PHYSICALLY IDENTICAL.

Then you should be able to show me how easy this is given we have "Mount Rushmore". You should be able to explain exactly what the "information" is.
The faces of the people is teh information.

Equally your formula should be able to trivially show how to measure the information with napped flints. I think this would be very helpful to the people who study prehistory to allow them to quickly sort naturally occurring artefacts from man-made ones.
Yup, it would do wonders.

Bingo - that is the problem that these archaeology people have. By cut marks in animal bones and by the presence of discarded napped flints its clear that sharp stone edges were used on animals and that these would crafted but you seem to have discovered some way of readily identifying design from random for these researchers. I imagine that they would be interested if your algorithms were trustworthy.
How do you know that all those items were not there simply by chance?

Very easy to answer this - SETI doesn't presume a designer for each anomalous signal but stringently re-checks and has so far discarded all to date. They err on the side of caution.
Neither does ID. Does ID claim that EVERYTHING is designed?

Intelligent Design supporters have a designer in mind and stick it onto selective biological features and then argue like crazy and refuse to accept the consensus view that they are doing it wrong. They presume agency and so do not err on the side of caution.
Wrong. ID proponents don't presume a designer also. Which designer am I presuming?

Wrong - if one person does something and everyone can't reproduce this are you then saying that the majority view is irrelevant ? That's stupid.
If they can't reproduce it then that's a different story. I said that majority OPINION is irrelevant, not majority EXPERIMENTS. Learn the difference.

Trees are found in nature - not "wood" and the difference is that wood is processed by an agent with a purpose. Ore is found in nature - very rarely free "metal". Metal is ore that is processed for a purpose.

Bacteria flagellum do not use "processed" materials but materials that are commonly found in nature.
Proteins that make the bacterial flagellum are no found in nature, except in living organisms. And what if I had a table from unprocessed wood and iron?

Graphite is chemical related to diamond - the physics of the presentation also matters. With Mount Rushmore then the issue is that the National Parks Service says that the "granite was very resistant, eroding one inch every 10,000 years." thus we look at how the surface has weathered and we see that the natural wearing deviates. Thus the probability is there is a design.
Maybe it formed faces by chance?

Why are you continually bringing up an example that everyone says is designed and has clear marks of design i.e. no one says that Mount Rushmore is natural ? If anyone said Mount Rushmore was naturally occurring then it is easy to show the abnormalities - scree that as been blasted off by explosive shocks, and a surface finish that is wrong for the time periods.
Becasue I want to show you teh features of designed objects and how do we tell them from non-designed ones.

So there are better designs such that if the Intelligent Designer spent a bit more time they could have done better ?
I could say so.

I think we've already had fun with that - when I throw a 6 sided die with my eyes closed then it comes up with a "1" and you thus say that was "design".
The chances of any number coming up by cahnce is 1:1. But as I said earlier some sequences are more prevalent then others, thus are more probable than others.

But it is explained by natural selection. Once again you have latched onto the word "chance" as tightly as you have the word "goal".
Bit if it did evolve by chance and natural selection then you are invoking an algorithm, and the NFL theorem clearly states that algorithms don't produce any new information except which random chance could. So you are displacing the problem to a higher order search.