Posted: Sep 15, 2012 7:32 pm
by chairman bill
christine wrote:... I told you of at least one book that is about this very subject: "Mindsight", by Kenneth Ring (Professor Emeritus of Psychology at Univ. of California, San Francisco). Published 1999.
Ie, blind people who have had NDE's, wherein they SEE things which are subsequently verified. Such things as: whilst having the NDE, their consciousness goes to the nearby waiting room, where anxious relatives are waiting... and the blind person is able to SEE what items of clothing their anxious relatives are wearing... describing, exactly, the items of apparel, the style, the colour, etc etc. And these descriptions are subsequently verified. Ie, the person who is, in their ordinary physical life, blind, whilst having the NDE
Christine, up to this point, I agree that there are questions to seek answers to. The data is fascinating & requires further investigation. But then you go on to say ...

... which truly does mean when their (eternal) consciousness is outside their physical body, and can thus travel to wherever it wants to...
... and you overstep the mark. The reported accounts say nothing about an eternal consciousness. Nothing. You've made that bit up. The reported events say nothing about an ability of this discarante consciousness (if that is what it is) being able to travel whereever it wants to. You've made that bit up too. Stick to the facts of what has been reported in the studies. Don't embellish with fanciful imaginings. Even if it was possible for people to somehow 'project' their consciousness beyond their physical form, there is nothing here to suggest that the ability persists beyond death. You'll note that at no time does Ring claim that these are things that dead people do. His case studies concern people undergoing traumatic events, during which many are within the still reversible process of dying. He offers nothing that indicates survival of death. Nothing.

... and so, in this example, the blind person, when their physical body is on an operating table being worked on by doctor(s), the consciousness of that person travels (for our eternal spiritual body is able to move at will, anywhere, simply by thinking of where you want to be) to the nearby waiting room, sees his/her very stressed, worried relatives, and SEES what they are each wearing.
Again, you are overstepping what is reasonable, even within the context of events that are extraordinary. Nothing in these accounts justifies your embellishment with wild speculation about the nature or ability of consciousness. You have introduced willful spirits, able to move wherever they wish. This does not derive from the accounts you are describing. You call yourself a researcher. Not on this evidence you're not.

... And then, when they have been resuscitated, they tell the medical staff that they SAW their relatives wearing, for eg "my husband was there, he was wearing a navy blue shirt, with the cuffs turned up almost to the elbows, and he had his glasses on, and he was sitting in the chair, with his head in his hands, crying "oh, Elizabeth, please don't die, please don't die..." . THAT is the sort of detail that BLIND people having an NDE are able to give to the medical staff, after they have been resuscitated. Other details that blind people are able to tell that they SAW, whilst having the NDE, is, for eg, that they say "whilst I was "out of it", I was able to SEE myself hovering above my physical body..and I saw that there were 5 people in the operating theatre... 3 doctors, and 2 nurses... one of the nurses was black, and one was white. Two of the doctors were black, and one was a Chinese man".
And then, having told the medical staff those details (remember, these things have been related by BLIND people who've had NDE's...ie, people who, in their ordinary physical life, are blind... many of them having been blind from birth.
And these descriptions of what they saw are then investigated, and are VERIFIED. So, in the above example, the medical staff are stunned, and they say "oh my god, how could you have known that there WERE 5 medical staff in the theatre, that 2 of the doctors were black, and that one of the doctors is Chinese...and that one of the nurses is white, the other one black..".
Fascinating stuff. I've read many such accounts in the past. They raise significant issues concerning the nature of consciousness, our ability to sense things, and more besides. They are not evidence of survival of death. To claim that they are is to misrepresent the data. For a researcher, that is professional suicide.

That, above, was not how I intended to open this post...
A shame, because but for a few things I've indicated, it's the first time we've really had any substance from you. Still, better late than never.

... my intention was to open it in order to express huge anger that you actually think I am lying when I listed my places of residence on Earth, from the year of my birth, 1958, to the present day.
You really don't get it, do you? It's not about thinking you're lying, it is about the nature of verifiable evidence. I have no reason to doubt that you are who you say you are, but the point is that there is a huge difference between you asserting that you're a different Christine, and us being able to trust that you are beyond doubt, telling the truth.You could be called Simon Jones. How would we know?

I assure you that that list of my residences, and the years involved, which I listed in an earlier post, today, is the truth.
As may be the claims you make about people's consciousness surviving death, but without the evidence, why should we accept it? And even when faced with the evidence, the interpretation of it may be subject to disagreement. Assurances don't cut it. Assure us you were born in Somerset, I'm inclined to believe it. It really isn't that big a deal. Tell me that when I die my consciousness will persist in some sub-atomic energy form, well forgive me if I ask for some greater evidence than just your say so.